How did you learn your flag rules

[chezza]

In answer to EP's question...I learnt my flag signals through training days and also from picking up things on the bank, if I hadn't got involved in the organising side of things, or been around drivers a lot I probably wouldn't even know what the blue book is, let alone have a copy at my disposal (as sec of the meeting I have to have a copy available).

Now the MSA is overhauling the blue book for 2008 (iirc) so maybe it is time we asked for a clarification on the flagging signals.

Also as we all know, and I'm sure Sam will agree with me on this one, some of the regulations in the blue book are very ambiguous and are open to individual interpretation, so I don't think you can take it as gospel anyway.

Another point is that unfortunately all marshals think they know the flags and flag signals, and are quick to criticise others when there is poor flagging etc, however anyone who has had a go I'm sure will agree that it is very hard to get correct 100% of the time.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

I suppose the question is (and this is to marshals please)

How DID you learn the flag regs?

Personally I got them from the various marshal club training days and on post. Is there anyone here who actually did learn them from the blue book?

A combination (if I can remember back that far) of on-post training and more formal sessions at training days. The formal sessions were all based on or had reference to the BB. Indeed one of the regular spots was always to look at the changes made in the BB for that year.

One problem with on-post training is that it can end up giving and reinforcing bad habits, e.g. interpretations differing from the BB. Equally it can be the only way of learning effective blue flagging if you can get a good teacher.

So I would say that I learnt to flag from instructors who were trying to implement the BB rules.

But, don't forget, the rules for International races are different in both subtle and obvious ways. The UK does many things differently and, in this case, I'm not sure that we are right to do so. Mind you, watching a mixed group of UK/Irish marshals at the Leinster/Anglesey meeting try to work out what the devil is going on was quite fun. That it must have confused some drivers is an illustration of why I think that the rules should be the same. (I'll leave it to others to argue that the rest-of-the-world should fall in with us or vice versa.)

Regards

Jim

[EvilPumpkin]

I've moved a couple of posts over from another thread that will probably appear above this one!

So how did you learn your flag rules? (I've said "rule book" rather than blue book - despite what some folks seem to believe, the whole world isn't governed by the MSA...... )

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by chezza

Another point is that unfortunately all marshals think they know the flags and flag signals,

NO THEY DON'T! I've done flag training & read the Blue Book but I don't claim to know anything more than the basics. I'm honest enough to admit that I'm a lousy flaggie.

[White flag man]

There is also, always the case where you have to interpret the situation for yourself. I recently had a case of a piece of flat bodywork falling off a formula vee and lying on the racing line, going into the Bombhole at Snetterton. I decided to put out a stationary yellow because; 1/. the bodywork was big enough for drivers to see and, 2/. had I put out a waved yellow, then the preceding flag post, at the entrance to the Esses, would have had to put out a stationary yellow, which would have meant that the whole of the Esses (a good place for passing) would have been a no overtaking zone, when the debris was no where near it. I won't use a red/yellow flag for debris because (as I've mentioned before) the BARC chief marshal at the Thruxton training day stated quite firmly that this was not a debris flag and I do not want to disrespect him and ignore that intruction.

[chezza]

Sorry Dave...All was a bit of a generalisation.

I'm a lousie flaggie, and I hate doing it, I freely admit that...but I often look at flags and think...oh shouldn't he/she doing this rather than that and i know little more than the basics.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by White flag man

There is also, always the case where you have to interpret the situation for yourself. I recently had a case of a piece of flat bodywork falling off a formula vee and lying on the racing line, going into the Bombhole at Snetterton. I decided to put out a stationary yellow because; 1/. the bodywork was big enough for drivers to see and, 2/. had I put out a waved yellow, then the preceding flag post, at the entrance to the Esses, would have had to put out a stationary yellow, which would have meant that the whole of the Esses (a good place for passing) would have been a no overtaking zone, when the debris was no where near it. I won't use a red/yellow flag for debris because (as I've mentioned before) the BARC chief marshal at the Thruxton training day stated quite firmly that this was not a debris flag and I do not want to disrespect him and ignore that intruction.

I agree with most of your thinking ....however, with any open wheelers and exposed cockpits you should think what would happen if the panel flipped up into the air...or if a car had spun on the slippery panel.....I would have waved yellow for at least the leaders and maybe until the whole field had seen it.

Not being a smartaarzze...but you should NOT assume drivers have spotted anything on the track....they may be distracted in many ways at the critical time...mirrors, trouble with a gear change, whatever....

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by chezza

I'm a lousie flaggie, and I hate doing it, I freely admit that...

You & me both!

[gachjoel]

Learnt my what flagging i`ve done so far thru 3 ways.
1st...On post
2nd..Checking out Marshals websites on flagging
3rd..Blue Book.

Not done any flags on training day as of yet.
Also thu 10ths i pick up a lot aswell

[mc1arke]

Most of my flagging has been through on post - or from discussions with other flaggies after a meeting

[Mark Mitchell]

I happen to think I'm a far better flaggie than I am an Observer!
I love flagging and jump at the chance to do it whenever I can.

Up until recently I was one of those flaggies who would always put an "Oil" flag out for debris on the track (IIRC the correct title for this flag is "Change Of Surface" - and debris etc on the track IMO means the surface has changed from what it was previously).
However, from reading a post elsewhere that says something along the lines of "If It's Big Enough To Hit - It's A Yellow" - I have changed my mind over this and am in agreement with that poster.

BUT, I also take notice of what Drivers tell us as well. A few years back in a Flag Training Session, a few local drivers came along to give us their thoughts on flag signals (Siting of posts etc).
One thing that they all agreed on was the use of the COS Flag.
The comment that always stuck in my mind came from a driver called Chris Maries who said that, if he saw a yellow flag he was more likely to look for something OFF the track whereas a COS flag meant he would be looking at the track to see what was going to make him fall off!

It is very frustrating when someone believes they are doing things correctly, to then see someone else doing it differently. Both parties obviously genuinely believe their "Way" is right.

Therefore, we do need urgent clarification from the MSA on the issue of COS or Yellow flag for debris.

With regards to the original question on this thread, I learned my trade from many very good experienced Flaggies (Namely Steve Brooks and John Owen) but also felt I had a natural flair for it (Sorry if that sounds conceited).
Obviously I attended training sessions, but the real learning came from actually flagging real races.

The idea now that Marshals have to do a day on Flags to upgrade is, again in my opnion, not a brilliant idea.
Yes it gives a Marshal an experience of Multi-tasking......which it seems is the only way forward, but from recent experiences, these Marshals don't intend to flag regularly and are only doing it because they have to in order to upgrade.

Good Flag Marshals are those who want to do it.

[The STIG]

I'm currently trying to upgrade to flags before they make the grade irrelevant, Once I get there, I intend to stay there - I like flagging and I have no intention of becoming an observer ever (my handwriting's terrible). Most of what I've picked up has been from actually doing it rather than formal training days, and yes I have read the blue book on the subject a couple of times.

I don't claim to know it all, but I do claim to be steadily improving over time, especially the black art of using the blue flag. (which I still haven't got the hang of).

I also appear to get a lot of practice with the oil/COS flag, especially at Donington for some reason.

[Alan Green]

I love flagging, and I also don't want to upgrade to Observer, thanks very much (despite just getting my 10th sig). If the job needs doing, I'll do it and I've done the Obs training to be sure I'm doing it right, but if you are flag & observing on post one of the jobs suffers so you'll possibly either miss an incident or miss a flag at the next post, which I don't like.

I've put down all three (training/on-post/selftaught) in the poll, as one thing you can't get just from training sessions is how to read a race for the blue flag. That has to come from experience and practice, practice, practice.

Al.

[Ianwales]

I learnt most of my flagging on post and really enjoy it, I'm another one who has no intention of becoming an observer if I can avoid it. One of the big disagreements I have with the new grading scheme is doing away with the grade of Flag Marshal, the question no one seems to be able to answer is in the future when a marshal arrives at a circuit how will the chief supposed to know who wants to/able to be flaggie and who doesn't if we are all graded as "expereinced marshals"? If I end up doing less and less flagging then it may influence whether I continue marshalling!

[BSA Susie]

I put 'other' as my dad was a flaggy all through my teenage years and when I started marshalling so really that's on post training, in car & at home discussions and a bit of osmosis!
When he became an observer, I went up to flag and have never looked back!

[Dean Watson]

Although the majority of my flag learning has been "on the job" with some exceptional observers over the years, also training sessions have played their part. Up untill recently I have never seen the "book" and I now have a pdf copy thanks to the MSA website. the relevent section is now edited to the appropriate bits and printed off and will go with me in my observers kit.(if any flagy or observer would like a copy pm your email and i will forward it. adobe acrobat or reader required or if requested I can convert it to word format)

[Woolley]

Mainly on post, plust a couple of training days. Both, I've decided, are flawed. You can't properly cover any situations on a training day, but on post reinforces bad practice. I reckon the best idea would be to run seminars - possibly in the pub after a meeting! Decide the interpretation and then get instructions out. It is clear that different interpretations exist between drivers and marshals, and that's a problem. I'm firmly of the opinon that the yellow is a danger flag and should be reserved as such, and so if debris is not a danger it should be covered by the Y/R.

[Shelagh]

I believe that every "trainee" should have experience on the flags. Not just so they can hold the fort when really stretched, but what better way of learning how to follow a race, figure out where the gaps are etc which they will need to know if having to deal with an incident.

These days you tend to get told to flag simply because you've turned up and there's no-one else to do it. I personally learned from working with some of the best flag marshals that have ever graced this country's tracks and I remain honoured to have done so and enormously grateful that the opportunity was there. I have tried to "maintain the baton" but chances are you flag on your own these days so no means of passing anything on. (I also don't put myself in the same bracket as those who taught me.)

[Suze]

I've said it on another thread in this forum but there were two flaggies at Silverstone whose blue flag skills were great - outside of Copse by the marker boards and the kink on the way to Becketts. Did a great job and they were invaluable.

As a driver in their first race, I tried soooo hard to make sure I knew a) were the flag points were and b) make sure I knew them.

I've done a marshal's training day but otherwise only know my flag's from the blue book and today's experience!

[ss_collins]

(IIRC the correct title for this flag is "Change Of Surface" - and debris etc on the track IMO means the surface has changed from what it was previously).

Sorry Mark - its changed. Slippery surface now.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Sorry Mark - its changed. Slippery surface now.

Thanks Sam!

[Zider Drinker]

Me... Started after doing a traing day where flagging was a main section of the day. (That years theme at Combe I think.) Asked if at some point I could "have a go" that was 4 years ago!!! Ok, i'm not flagging all meetings but try to make sure I do several days flaggin a year to keep me eye in.

Picked up serveral tips from some very good flag marshals, and always learning.

[Norbert]

Earlier this year what I think is an awesome interpretation of the BB meanings for the use of the Blue Flag. As we all know you use the flags to say something to the driver. If you have this in your mind when using the Blue Flag you will not go far wrong!

Stationary Blue - 'Look in your mirrors'

Waved Blue - 'For sake look in your mirrors'

I cannot take credit for this interpretation but I think it translates the BB into language we all understand?!

[EvilPumpkin]

Think my favourite has to be

Waved Yellow and Waved Blue together - "you're being overtaken by an accident"

[devon kev]

Now that would be interesting to see