Logical Progression

[00 XR8]

Originally Posted by Dasher

And the winner is Bullet.

This class so far has produced Lee & Brett Holdsworth, Paul Dumbrell, Marcus Zukanovic,the late Ashley Cooper, Geoff Emery, Tony Bates & another that i just cant recall.

Eight is perhaps a higher number than other categories can boast....... but when you compare those names with the likes of Coulthard, Marshall, Reynolds, Webb, Trimble, and A. Davison that have come out of Carrera Cup........ you get a better picture of where the quick you guys are coming from........

To put it another way, looking at the 2008 fields, who do you expect to be in V8s in a few years time....... guys like Fiore, Russell, Carrati, Moffat and Mawer......... or Parker, Lloyd, Trancedi and McGregor..... (the fastest guys from Qualy in the latest Commodore round)?

Also, not saying you're wrong, because he did drive a lot of cars back in the day...... but when did Dumbrell drive Commodore Cup?

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by 00 XR8

Eight is perhaps a higher number than other categories can boast....... but when you compare those names with the likes of Coulthard, Marshall, Reynolds, Webb, Trimble, and A. Davison that have come out of Carrera Cup........ you get a better picture of where the quick you guys are coming from........

To put it another way, looking at the 2008 fields, who do you expect to be in V8s in a few years time....... guys like Fiore, Russell, Carrati, Moffat and Mawer......... or Parker, Lloyd, Trancedi and McGregor..... (the fastest guys from Qualy in the latest Commodore round)?

Also, not saying you're wrong, because he did drive a lot of cars back in the day...... but when did Dumbrell drive Commodore Cup?

All of these drivers as far as i can recall, Fiore, Carrati, Moffat, Coulthard, Marshall, Reynolds, Webb, Trimble, and A. Davison were products of Formula Ford before they raced Carrera Cup.

Paul Dumbrell definitely raced Commodore Cup with Darren Hossack as his mechanic in about 1997 to get his license endorsements for F Holden.

PS. Also another driver that comes to mind is Wayne Wakefield.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Dasher

PS. Also another driver that comes to mind is Wayne Wakefield.

And another is Christian D'Agostin

[alfacors]

I'm not sure you can put Commodore Cup and Carrera Cup on the same level. Plenty of quick guys in Carrera.... who is to say that the Commodore guys wouldn't be as quick in the same machinery? Maybe, maybe not. Bit hard to tell right now.

Lee Holdsworth was fast in Commodores, but never won or got pole until the other weekend, and he's considered a future champ in the V8s now..... you just never know. Guys who beat Mark Webber in the 95 FFords are racing touring cars while Mark is in F1.... again you never know.

Dave Russell originally got his break racing in a Proton production car! He had an ill-fated shot at the Development Series aboard the well-past-its-use-by Falcon of Paul Pickett.... I am surprised he hasn't landed a V8 enduro drive by now.

[Tony C]

Originally Posted by Nero

What do people feel is the logical steps or progression in classes for a young driver in Australia and is Formula Ford still as influential as it once was?

It amazes me how these threads get so far off track and just become pi**ing competitions between people that dont have a clue.

If we go back to the original question (as quoted above) and have a think. We can assume that we are talking about if someone was to do this now....not ten years ago (hence the comment on relevence of formula ford). Lets assume that the goal is to become a V8 supercar driver (it is a V8 forum).

Any driver that is going to get to the big league has to be commercially savvy and attractive for sponsors to foot the bill (being a good driver is a given). Now lets look at the categories listed so far, their cost (running cost only) and their benefits:

Aussie Racing Cars (60-100,000) race on the same tracks as V8, national series, close racing, some technical adjustments for the driver to get used to (ride height, roll centre, wheel alignment), on the V8 calender (keeps you on the radar). National TV coverage. Gets rid of the bad habits picked up in karts.

Formula Ford (150-200,000 depending on team and testing program) (Brett might be able to clarify this) race on the same tracks as V8, national series, close racing, more technical adjustments for the driver to get used to (shock and spring adjustments, data logging), on the V8 calender (keeps you on the radar). National TV coverage.

Commodore Cup (Unsure of price), local series, close racing, cars of similar size and weight as V8, limited track exposure, similar techical adjustments as ARC, no TV, not on V8 calender (not on radar).

Utes (250-500,000 or more) race on the same tracks as V8, national series, close racing, some technical adjustments for the driver (ride height, wheel alignment), on the V8 calender (keeps you on the radar). National TV coverage. Can teach drivers bad habits (V8 teams dont like damage)

Carrera Cup (350-500,000 or more) race on the same tracks as V8, national series, close racing, some technical adjustments for the driver (ride height, roll centre, wheel alignment), on the V8 calender (keeps you on the radar). National TV coverage.

Fujitsu Series (250-500,000 or more, rumours of 1 mill) race on the same tracks as V8 main game, national series, close racing, more technical adjustments for the driver to get used to (shock and spring adjustments, roll centres, sway bars, data logging), on the V8 calender (some 08 all 09) (keeps you on the radar). National TV coverage.

I am trying to stay unbiased but from what I can see, if I was making recommendations to a young aspiring driver I would say, ARC, FF, Fujitsu (one season in an older car (Beikoff) then step up (Howard or White) to a later model car). This would teach drivers how to set up a race car, diagnose problems, use data logging, be sympathetic to self preservation (damage) and commercial savvy. These are all things that a V8 team will be looking for. Any aspiring drivers needing a professional manager PM me.

I know this will upset some people on here but lets get back on track.....And FF is just as relevant now as it was 15 years ago.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Tony C

It amazes me how these threads get so far off track and just become pi**ing competitions between people that dont have a clue.

Commodore Cup (Unsure of price), local series, close racing, cars of similar size and weight as V8, limited track exposure, similar techical adjustments as ARC, no TV, not on V8 calender (not on radar).


I am trying to stay unbiased but from what I can see, if I was making recommendations to a young aspiring driver I would say, ARC, FF, Fujitsu (one season in an older car (Beikoff) then step up (Howard or White) to a later model car). This would teach drivers how to set up a race car, diagnose problems, use data logging, be sympathetic to self preservation (damage) and commercial savvy. These are all things that a V8 team will be looking for. Any aspiring drivers needing a professional manager PM me.

I know this will upset some people on here but lets get back on track.....And FF is just as relevant now as it was 15 years ago.

TC
Its interesting that you had a go at people that you said didnt have a clue, when you yourself made comparisons and offered opinions about things that you, by your post also know nothing about.

In that, for your information and others,

Do the big money prices quoted to run per season in ARC,FF,Carrera,Utes have a direct bearing on how much you learn? I don't think so,.

All you are paying for is the privilege to run on the V8 calendar and to line somebodies pocket with cash, but as we all know "Thats how motorsport works".

On the other hand,

Commodore Cup (the price to run a season is irrelevant in all cases, we are talking about possible logical progression classes here) but is between $40-$60K per season plus the price of the car which is around $50K.

IS a National Series.

Runs on the SAME tracks as V8's

HAS National TV (SBS & Foxtel).

HAS Data Logging.

HAS adjustment similarities such as ride height, roll center, shocks & springs, sway bars,wheel alignment.

Similar size & weight and characteristics to V8's

Unfortunately is off the radar to a degree because it dosent run with the V8's, but not by the people who really know their racing categories as it seems you dont.

It also seems that you are touting for business with your "These are all things that a V8 team will be looking for. Any aspiring drivers needing a professional manager PM me" comment", so who is the one that is "off topic" as you stated.

[Tony C]

Originally Posted by Dasher

TC
Its interesting that you had a go at people that you said didnt have a clue, when you yourself made comparisons and offered opinions about things that you, by your post also know nothing about.

In that, for your information and others,

Do the big money prices quoted to run per season in ARC,FF,Carrera,Utes have a direct bearing on how much you learn? I don't think so,.

All you are paying for is the privilege to run on the V8 calendar and to line somebodies pocket with cash, but as we all know "Thats how motorsport works".

On the other hand,

Commodore Cup (the price to run a season is irrelevant in all cases, we are talking about possible logical progression classes here) but is between $40-$60K per season plus the price of the car which is around $50K.

IS a National Series.

Runs on the SAME tracks as V8's

HAS National TV (SBS & Foxtel).

HAS Data Logging.

HAS adjustment similarities such as ride height, roll center, shocks & springs, sway bars,wheel alignment.

Similar size & weight and characteristics to V8's

Unfortunately is off the radar to a degree because it dosent run with the V8's, but not by the people who really know their racing categories as it seems you dont.

It also seems that you are touting for business with your "These are all things that a V8 team will be looking for. Any aspiring drivers needing a professional manager PM me" comment", so who is the one that is "off topic" as you stated.

Well I was correct...it has upset some people!

Dasher thanks for the info about Comm Cup, it appears you are close to the category. If we add your info to what I have said then all other readers are getting a clearer picture of the options available. Based on what you have said, I would add Comm Cup as an option for a driver but to run at the same time as FF if they could afford to cough up 40-60k without much return for the sponsors.

I mentioned that I was not sure of the info I provided about Comm Cup because I have not been involved in it (and it is off the radar). On the other categories I do know what I am talking about, having worked in professional racing for many years, including ARC, FF, F holden, V8's, Sport sedans etc. It was from this first hand experience that I was able to offer my opinion. Opinions are subjective so could differ from yours.

Please open your other eye and give us an opinion about the other categories, I cant see a driver going straight from Comm cup to the main game V8's, can you?

Yes I have bitten...so stop laughing baz, shane , FA...

[Prickly_Goo]

OK lets be realistic here.. here's a scenario..

Driver Z wants to get to V8 Supercars.. he thinks the best way to achieve that is via the cheaper options (ARC, Com Cup and Utes)

What does everyone suggest?

I suggest perhaps chasing a bit more sponsorship and doing the catagories that matter such as your FF, Fujitsu and things..

Anyone disagree?

[Camaroz]

I am amazed that out of 33 posts, not one mention of F3!

I agree that "race craft" is learnt in Karts. If you ain't got it by then well...

So on to FF to learn the tracks! Hold on, if you can drive, you learn a track in a practice session!

If you want to learn data, working with an engineer FF does that but F3 does it better.

Budgets! FF and F3, its about line bore.

Justin Tate is a good example of how to do it.

Did his race-craft in Karts.
Chose a lower level class that provided good competition (944's) and won the Championship.
Into F3 (Trophy Class) and now moved up to National Class inside three rounds. Keep you spare eye on this boy!

The difference here is that Justin could go all the way in international competition and if your thinking of Europe/US, F3 is the way to learn to drive FAST cars!

[mountainstar]

If you look at every V8 driver they all have a different story with many varying backgrounds before they got their V8 break. I don't think it is totally exactly what racing ladder series you race in, but what connections, sponsors and pr you generate along the way.

It seems there is a qualitative aspect to all this not just a quantitative one when it comes to driver development. As pointed out previously, a lot of guys who finished down the order in Formula Ford have successful professional careers while some FF champions are nowhere to be found, at least not at a professional level.

I think if there is one thing I could tell a young driver is focus on making good connections with people in the business and sponsors. I don't think I understood how valued this was when I was younger.

I noticed a comment about utes being $250k-$300k a year. I remember talking to a leading competitor a while ago and he was spending $8 to $10k a race weekend. The goalposts must have moved then.

[Dasher]

Over the last 20 years or so,most V8 drivers but not all, started their career paths in Karts and then followed the then traditional path of Formula Fords into their next career move whether it was overseas to race open wheelers or to domestic F Holden, F3 or V8's.

The FFord path is still as relevant as it ever has been but what we are trying to discuss here is the question of whether or not there are other options available to drivers depending on their chosen career paths.

All of the classes previously mentioned have an amount of positive input to a driver of some description or another and this in one way or another depends totally on their career path such as,

Karts to FFord to F3 to overseas open wheelers
or
Karts to FFord to Comm Cup to Fujitsu to V8's
or
Karts to ARC or Utes to Comm cup or Carrera cup to Fujitsu to V8's

or a variety of combinations depending on budget or expediencies needed.

All I have been trying to do is to wave the flag for another class out there, that a lot of people are not necessarily aware of or don't know enough about, that is a genuine contender as a feeder class to the main game and which has had an absolutely outstanding record of producing V8 drivers, other than the previously mentioned FFord's, but as i said that was the formerly traditional path, now maybe the path is changing to a degree.

[Nero]

I find it interesting that the majority have V8 Supercars as the final repository of the talented. Should drivers not set their sights further a field?

[Dasher]

Nero,
You must be a rookie in motorsport with your comment about the drivers having no other ambition but to drive V8's.

Every driver from karts to V8's thinks that they will be or could have been the next F1 World Champion.

Don't think for a moment that the drivers don't have any higher ambitions like F1, EuroF3,Nascar or Champ car its just that for one reason or another,usually money, they end up back in Oz in V8's.

[Nero]

No, I meant the majority of respondents to this thread and not the drivers.

[Tony C]

Originally Posted by Nero

No, I meant the majority of respondents to this thread and not the drivers.

Well the forum is called Australia and new zealand touring cars!!!

Australia is very focussed on touring cars, always has been. As I commented earlier if a driver wants to make it to F1 they need to get to Europe as soon as possible. They will need a lot more experience each year than they would get here.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by Nero

I cannot believe that aussie racing cars are viable alternative given how basic and unadjustable they are. Good close racing though.

I cannot believe someone mentioned these things in this discussion and yet no one mentioned F3.

Going off the numbers your quoting, it's no more expensive to win an F3 championship than it is a FFord one.

[Falcadore]

Going by the stats - how they got there - the current V8 Supercar racers, and in bold our current crop of OS racers

Formula Ford
Mark Webber (Oz & British)
Will Power
Marcos Ambrose (Oz & British)
David Brabham
John Martin (Oz & British)
Garth Tander
Jason Richards (NZ)
Greg Murphy (NZ)
James Courtney (British)
Mark Winterbottom
Steven Richards
Todd Kelly
Shane Price
Shane Van Gisbergen (NZ)
Andrew Jones
Cameron McConville
Rick Kelly
Will Davison
Jason Bright
Marcus Marshall
Lee Holdsworth
Michael Caruso
Russell Ingall (Oz & British)
Paul Morris
Andrew Thompson
Tony D'Alberto
Jamie Whincup
Craig Lowndes
Fabian Coulthard

Formula Holden
Mark Webber
Will Power
Mark Skaife
Greg Murphy
Todd Kelly
Rick Kelly
Paul Dumbrell
Jason Bright
Paul Morris
Craig Lowndes

Formula 3
Mark Webber (British)
Will Power (Oz & British)
Marcos Ambrose (British & French)
David Brabham (British)
Ryan Briscoe (Germany & Euroseries)
John Martin (British)
James Courtney (British)
Will Davison (British)
Marcus Marshall (Oz & British)
Michael Caruso
Russell Ingall (Germany & Japan)
Michael Patrizi (Euroseries)

Fujitsu Supercars
Mark Winterbottom
Shane Price
Andrew Jones
Paul Dumbrell
Kayne Scott
Lee Holdsworth
Michael Caruso
Andrew Thompson
Tony D'Alberto

Carrera Cup
Marcus Marshall
Fabian Coulthard

Formula Renault (Europe)
Will Power (V6 Series)
Ryan Briscoe
Daniel Ricciardo
Will Davison
Russell Ingall
Fabian Coulthard

Formula BMW
Sam Abay
Michael Patrizi

NZ Formula Toyota
Shane Van Gisbergen

Super Touring
Jason Richards
Greg Murphy
Steven Richards (Oz & BTCC)
Cameron McConville
Paul Morris

Small bore touring cars
Mark Skaife
Jason Richards (NZ)
Paul Morris

GT-Production cars
Cameron McConville

Production cars
Steven Richards
Steven Johnson
Marcus Marshall

One Make Racing
Mark Skaife (Lasers)
Jason Richards (Mini 7)
Lee Holdsworth (Commodore Cup)

Sports Sedans
Mark Skaife (NSW)
Steven Johnson
Kayne Scott

[Flagger]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

I am amazed that out of 33 posts, not one mention of F3!

I agree that "race craft" is learnt in Karts. If you ain't got it by then well...

So on to FF to learn the tracks! Hold on, if you can drive, you learn a track in a practice session!

If you want to learn data, working with an engineer FF does that but F3 does it better.

Budgets! FF and F3, its about line bore.

Justin Tate is a good example of how to do it.

Did his race-craft in Karts.
Chose a lower level class that provided good competition (944's) and won the Championship.
Into F3 (Trophy Class) and now moved up to National Class inside three rounds. Keep you spare eye on this boy!

The difference here is that Justin could go all the way in international competition and if your thinking of Europe/US, F3 is the way to learn to drive FAST cars!

No posts on F3 is an indication of its place in OZ.
in reality how many of those drivers above did it without heaps of Dad's money, not many i would suggest. So when you have a lot of Dad's money you might as well spend it in the higher cost classes. my point is the class doesnt matter it is how much you have to spend to progress in the sport and it cant be done on commercial deals they are just not big enough. Or if it can you are dead lucky and there is less than a handfull of them in all of Oz motorsport.

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by Flagger

No posts on F3 is an indication of its place in OZ.
in reality how many of those drivers above did it without heaps of Dad's money, not many i would suggest. So when you have a lot of Dad's money you might as well spend it in the higher cost classes. my point is the class doesnt matter it is how much you have to spend to progress in the sport and it cant be done on commercial deals they are just not big enough. Or if it can you are dead lucky and there is less than a handfull of them in all of Oz motorsport.

Cash can only get you so far before your lack of talent shows up.
Will Power and Mark Webber are great examples of success without a cashed up father.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Nero

I find it interesting that the majority have V8 Supercars as the final repository of the talented. Should drivers not set their sights further a field?

I'm with you Nero !!

Tell those blokes at the Indy 500, read Dixon & Briscoe - whats the crowd, does it exceed the total of all V8 attendees for a one year. Television ?

Reality is V8 Supercars do not rate on the driver employability scale internationally.

I know Winky has aspirations ... dont accept V8 supercars Jamie.

[peckstar]

isnt the crowd for indy (one day) about the same as the crowd for Clipsal all days Cavvy? hardly makes the rest of your post relebent then?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by alfacors

Cash can only get you so far before your lack of talent shows up.
Will Power and Mark Webber are great examples of success without a cashed up father.

But they both had patrons/advisers/managers who helped them out.

[alfacors]

So what's to stop other guys getting a Manager who knows their stuff? Pride? Stubbornness? Stupidity?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by alfacors

So what's to stop other guys getting a Manager who knows their stuff? Pride? Stubbornness? Stupidity?

Nothing really. I'm sure it could be any of those things, plus others. At least to find a manager as a young driver without money it's not the easiest thing in the world. One you have to find someone to take you on that has an interest in doing so. Two, someone that knows what they doing. Three, someone who will work for a possibility on having no return on investment in time and money.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by alfacors

So what's to stop other guys getting a Manager who knows their stuff? Pride? Stubbornness? Stupidity?

The complete lack of 'other guys' capable of impressing the complete lack of managers capable of wheeling the deals necessary.

Webber and Power are clearly very special cases. To suggest that all a young driver needs is a phone number to Flavio Briatore is a little misleading.