[Rules] Formula 1 to clampdown team radio?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am not sure I agree with the problem they are trying to solve. As best as I can read that Autosport article, it is because fans are turned off by feedback from the pit to the driver during the race. It doesn't bother me, but maybe it is a big issue that I am oblivious to?

I have a polar opposite view on telemetry. I think it should generally be one way (car to pit), but don't limit it or the communication back to the driver. And in fact, require the teams to expose a large amount of that data to the viewers. Give viewers free access to online apps that show this telemetry either in raw form, or better yet via slick real time metrics (visualizations) that would be easy for casual viewers to understand, digest and appreciate. Why should we be limited to graphics on the screen (as picked by the producers) or pay to view apps that may or may not include telemetry, limited telemetry or just basic timing and scoring data that is no more revolutionary than what was available decades ago (granted not to the viewer, but lap and segment times is not a new concept and something better than that can be done).

Nothing would be more interesting than the ability view and examine moment to moment teammate battles or battles for position between multiple cars. And then there is the on track drama of an "incident". Why should we have to deal with the "we will view the telemetry after the race" to see what happened? For example someone tags someone in the rear going into a corner. Did the driver in front brake earlier than he had in the previous few laps, or did the driver in the rear just get caught out and brake too late? Why read about the details hours or days later, lets see those graphics right now and in near real time? I am not saying that this also has to result in a nanny punishment scenario either. Having more data and more specifically "timely" data might reduce the number of inappropriate punishments via stewards.

I know teams consider this to be proprietary and secret data, but suck it up. Its about entertainment as much as it is about sport. Share the data. Everyone will be on equal footing. It might also expose more about drivers than they care, but again, they are big boys in the big league. Deal with it.

I think it is also the future for sports. Real time tracking and metrics. I don't really follow US football (gridiron) but they are going to be testing out a location tracking system this season for each player on the field. Chips in the shoulder pads for each player. It should provide real time data as to players location on the field...

http://gigaom.com/2014/07/31/the-nfl...-in-real-time/

Are we going to go backwards in F1 while other sports become the technology leaders?

Richard

I would agree with one way telemetry, if not deleted completely.
On driver communications, I wonder if the problem is that we don't get all of it, only what the producer deems is interesting. Maybe all radio communication should go and we go back to pit boards....

Data for viewers? I don't think so.
Paradise City thinks we are in decline in the internet age and in a way I agree.

We are in information overload. Modern TV and technology gives us more detail than e=we need to enjoy a contest. We have analysis that is way over the top. The internet gives people instant communication and allows us to trip off with an opinion at a moments notice and without much thought. Sports are done to death on minute detail.
Enthusiasts might get off on heaps of data but the average Joe watching his TV broadcast isn't that interested. He may briefly admire the technology but it serves no purpose.

If you could get an app or have another channel that got all the extra graphics with a small fee to Bernie/CVC then that might work but if Bernie charged $10 a race for it would he get 100,000 people picking it up? I doubt it, so if not then its NOT an essential to make a change.

Sailing and football have pundit and people doing great graphics but F1 used to have high enough interest to need that and the races this year haven't been bad at all.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and thats perhaps the heart of your question. if popularity is declining do you focus on holding on the the dedicated fans or do you continue to sacrifice them in the hope that you may or may not attract more casual fans?

selfish of me to say but weather the storm by offering more to ensure the dedicated fans dont leave and then try to build upon that.

Ditto!

In my opinion, this proposal is going more in the wrong direction. Penalize the hard core fans who bring their scanners and headphones to the track by making the teams talk in codes the fans can't figure out, all because a few fans can't cope with the idea that all racing isn't flat-out all the time.

Anybody who thinks it is, should read The Technique of Motor Racing. It's been ages since I read it, but I remember it, among other things, talking about conserving brakes by coasting down for a while to let drag do part of the job before actually using the brakes, as they had to do back in the old days when it was easy to use up your drum brakes. Meanwhile, the cars were the most advanced machines the teams could put on the grid with the technology available at time time, because the technical rules were quite limited.

But, F1 has decided it would much rather focus on people who would just as soon go to a football game.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and thats perhaps the heart of your question. if popularity is declining do you focus on holding on the the dedicated fans or do you continue to sacrifice them in the hope that you may or may not attract more casual fans?

selfish of me to say but weather the storm by offering more to ensure the dedicated fans dont leave and then try to build upon that.

For me it's simple; you consolidate, tweak the sport and take a dip in popularity and online flak on the chin.

That's not happening because you've got sharks running the sport who want an immediate windfall and flattering the masses is seen as the path in doing that and nervous marketing execs who are terrorised by the surge of cynicism that's the hallmark of the internet and can avail of countless marketing metrics which can be delivered immediately making them constantly tetchy. A short term dip in viewing figures is a big crisis for such types. There's no time for mature reflection, it's an environment that's given to knee jerk reaction.

As for the telemetry question; eliminating race telemetry/radio communications might appeal to the traditionalist fan and place a greater emphasis on drivers to drive by their wits. Fastest would still win.

I'm not fazed by curbing aspects of technology. For me, at least, the sport is about the genius who crafts the car in winter, maintains it in summer whilst the warrior drives it on the track. In short, I see F1 as a human sport, genius + warrior. Technology will play a prominent role of course but the idea that every facet and dimension of the sport must be space age is a very obstructive one in my view.

[Casper]

Another aspect of the sport's problems (or it could be THE aspect) is driven by the need to feed the bottom line of CVC. They will not tolerate anything that causes a loss of revenue but the way things are going there is only so much juice that can be squeezed out of the orange. Sure there are other problems but the main one is bottom line driven. I am sure that is why BE will not entertain any form of media that does not produce revenue.

It is also a fact of life that all categories go through high and low cycles and for some reason F1 has mostly been on an up cycle since WW2 which is very surprising and an exceptionally long time. I believe the accepted cycle is about fifteen years but that is only antecdotal and I can't remember where I got that number from.

[JeremySmith]

I don't need a play by play of how the race was run....

[chillibowl]

And that's fine. Some may want to watch with just the natural sounds, some want commentary, while others want more.

Surely the tech exists for all to be accommodated and there is no reason why we all need to consume it in the same way.

But whatever happens, this level of 'information' will soon be considered common place and the cutting edge stuff I will be banging on about will be watching a race via the VR headsets that FB or Google are currently working on or have access to full race telemetry so I can replay a race on my PS4, run my own strategy or just see how I fair against so the pros.

They are barley scratching the surface imo but it's not for everyone and it doesn't have to be either.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

They should ban "start maps" too. Why do they allow a starting "system" that mimics traction control in all but name?

The drive-by-wire should not be confused with traction control. However, one should not expect the banning of the first mentioned system would make things entirely different. Before the introduction of drive-by-wire drivers, teams and engine manufacturers invested a lot in the development of sophisticated throttle linkages.
By the end of the day, the only differences between those throttle linkages and the current drive-by-wire systems are costs and the possibility to alter the settings during the race. As drivers are allowed to constantly change various settings throughout the race, it is simply incomprehensible why this should not be the case for the throttle settings.

[Moneyseeker]

Personally I would ban all radio contact and telemetary. It shouldn't be neccesary to keep constant contact and info feed with the car to keep it running in a race for 2 hours, this constant 'optimising' of performance from the pitwall, garage and back at the factory during the race is just a huge cost and doesn't add anything to the racing.

Keep flag lights on the dash, DRS is already enalbed/disabled centrally when the SC comes out, etc so need for anymore info than this. Keep fuel levels on the dash so the driver can see what he is using.

It should be IMO. The teams prepare the cars to their highest standards for the race, then visor down and off you go. Actually I think the driver would adapt well and feel more empowered and perhaps be better regarded as a result rather than seen as micro managed.

All the F1 drivers are highly skilled (clearly the quicker ones are even better) and perhaps some of this is lost in the constant fiddling with the car and managing the drivers from the pitwall during the race.

Give them the car and let them get on with it.

[chillibowl]

DRS presents an interesting problem. since it comes on automatically its seems only logical that a driver should be able to ask what the time intervals are to the car either ahead or behind. particularly behind.

certainly though i can see the logic of just telling the driver only the time intervals and then leave it to the driver to decide for themselves which adjustments to make and which sectors to either make up time or can risk slowing a few tenths to save tires/fuel etc.

software glitches, being forced to reset the software, making correction errors could also be an interesting way to reintroduce attrition (without sacrificing saftey too much). since drivers seem to need so much help with regards to how to use their steering wheels i suspect many would make race ending mistakes. i would like to see that balanced with more on track testing though.

[davyboy]

Team radio pretty much dictates all races these days. Apparently the following wasn't broadcast over the world feed at last weekend's Italian GP... but we did see Toto Wolff grinning.

Lewis : What do I do with this squiggly thing at the end of the straight ?
Toto Wolff : That's a chicane Lewis, turn right, then immediately left.
Lewis : OK.

Nico : What do I do after I pass the pit exit.
Toto [grinning] : Carry on going straight until you reach the red and white polystyrene blocks and weave through them.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The drive-by-wire should not be confused with traction control. However, one should not expect the banning of the first mentioned system would make things entirely different. Before the introduction of drive-by-wire drivers, teams and engine manufacturers invested a lot in the development of sophisticated throttle linkages.
By the end of the day, the only differences between those throttle linkages and the current drive-by-wire systems are costs and the possibility to alter the settings during the race. As drivers are allowed to constantly change various settings throughout the race, it is simply incomprehensible why this should not be the case for the throttle settings.

Gone are the days when cars would light up the rear tyres with plumes of blue smoke off the grid. That's what I miss from the start process. Something has changed in those terms, when it all seemed more "analogue", you would have cars getting away all at different speeds. Now all the cars more or less get away equally unless one bogs down and goes into some anti-stall mode or something. I'm not an expert on the technology involved, but for me there should be no interference from electronics during the start procedure, it should be the guy's right foot and the engine and clutch and that's it.

When was the last time anyone saw a driver light up the rear tyres with smoke at the start?

EDIT; literally the first youtube video I chose, not one car produced tyre smoke at the start...

No smoke
2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3RjGV-ewRg

Lots of smoke
1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YQHDwUKik

[Greem]

That smoke looked a bit rose-tinted to me.

[JeremySmith]

I think it is a good idea for them to clamp down on radio communication ...The drivers should not need instructions on how to pilot the car..

[Tucky]

The problem is the cars are so advanced they need the radio to make sure it runs smoothly. Let's say at the next race team radio is banned, I'd put my money on at least half of the cars DNF because they didn't press the right switch or turned the right dial in time.

Also would broadcasting the full pit radio to the masses really help F1? The fact that the teams love using code now that we have no idea what it is in reference to seems pretty pointless. I'd rather they carry on broadcasting snippets of radio that we understand than having to hear what sounds like nonsense.

"Nico Strat 2, cancel magic, K to 5, flip the burger, onions on the side"

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Tucky

The problem is the cars are so advanced they need the radio to make sure it runs smoothly. Let's say at the next race team radio is banned, I'd put my money on at least half of the cars DNF because they didn't press the right switch or turned the right dial in time.

Also would broadcasting the full pit radio to the masses really help F1? The fact that the teams love using code now that we have no idea what it is in reference to seems pretty pointless. I'd rather they carry on broadcasting snippets of radio that we understand than having to hear what sounds like nonsense.

"Nico Strat 2, cancel magic, K to 5, flip the burger, onions on the side"

They don't need telemetry to run the cars. If they have the technology to do telemetry they have the technology to build drive trains that last two hours without telemetry

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

They don't need telemetry to run the cars. If they have the technology to do telemetry they have the technology to build drive trains that last two hours without telemetry

Yes ........

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Tucky

The problem is the cars are so advanced they need the radio to make sure it runs smoothly. Let's say at the next race team radio is banned, I'd put my money on at least half of the cars DNF because they didn't press the right switch or turned the right dial in time.

Also would broadcasting the full pit radio to the masses really help F1? The fact that the teams love using code now that we have no idea what it is in reference to seems pretty pointless. I'd rather they carry on broadcasting snippets of radio that we understand than having to hear what sounds like nonsense.

"Nico Strat 2, cancel magic, K to 5, flip the burger, onions on the side"

Then we are in *major* trouble aren't we....

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Greem

That smoke looked a bit rose-tinted to me.

You always say that.

Is there any aspect of current F1 that you think is not as good as, say 1970's F1?

Because of my rose tinted lenses, there is little now that I think is as good as it was then, but then I can find old videos that confirm my memory, so maybe they aren't so rose tinted. Sure, they are mostly highlights and don't reflect the times where the track was silent, with the spectators waiting 30 seconds before the next car showed up (on a tracks which had much longer laps than most modern tracks). I never had a problem with that. The delays between cars told you the true difference between them. The one scene that stands out for me from that puff piece Audi did on Le Mans 2008 (Truth in 24) was the first three or four laps where they showed start/finish and the increasing gaps of the Peugeots on the Audis. I enjoy that sort of thing. It really shows the differences between the cars.

But, F1 has decided it's really all about entertainment, and 30 second gaps between cars aren't entertaining to most.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by miatanut

You always say that.

Not quite always, but it is my default reaction to OMG IT ISN'T LIKE THE OLD DAYS.

That's because it isn't the old days. And if we, the enthusiasts, constantly call out F1 today as being complete rubbish, who the hell is going to enthuse to people today to get them interested?

We can't have it both ways. Either stop watching it altogether and be consistent in your collective dislike of modern F1, or get behind it and get other people enthused. We cannot batter it down at every turn, yet simultaneously say to each other "why does nobody watch it nowadays?".

This season has been *brilliant* so far.

Overtaking
Controversy
MASSIVELY INCREASED EFFICIENCY IN THE POWERTRAIN (deliberately shouty)
Name calling
Overtaking
New drivers bubbling up to the top
Records being set in terms of age
And many, many more (not available in the shops)

...yet here we are, still collectively appearing to say: You know what, despite all that, F1 is a load of rubbish. Don't bother watching it.

There's a lot wrong with F1, sure, but hey - you know what? There's a lot right with it, too.

The biggest problem these days has already been identified, many times over, so I'm not going to bother describing it here. But we, the enthusiasts, we're part of it too.

[Armco Bender]

Team radios should play Justin Bieber music.This will grow the youff market.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Is there any aspect of current F1 that you think is not as good as, say 1970's F1?

To address that, and the other points: yes. The drivers, primarily. One thing I dislike intensely is the close control/management of driver personas, personalities, ways of life. But I appreciate that they're not just drivers (and haven't been since Hunt was winning races, really, if not before) - they're billboards, advertising hoardings, screens on which to project aspirational brands and lifestyles. That's why all us old folk think Kimi's "I don't give a..." is funny (if a little tiresome now).

But speaking purely personally, I find that looking back at say 30 years ago and saying "aw man, look at that, I remember that, that was *awesome*" is only relevant if you actually do remember it. My son, 10 years old, thinks the modern era of cars are fantastic - yet I took him to the Donington Collection and his standout moment wasn't seeing all the old cars, it was seeing Sonic The Hedgehog on the 1990's Williams. He's seen hours of modern racing (on TV and trackside), and "historic" (on TV and trackside), and he still prefers the modern because it's his era, his time. He smells the smells, he hears the rumbles, he sees the spins, he feels the impacts (not personally mind you!) but still identifies more with the modern stuff. I do try, though...

What else, though? Technology? Pah. The cars have been sufficiently distanced from road cars since Chapman took a DFV and made it part of the stressed structure (if not before). The business angle though... the elitism... yeah, that might be not as good as it was 30 years ago. And that's why F1 is where it is, because it was made *brand* aspirational, rather than achievement.

Money. That's the root, isn't it?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Greem

...That's because it isn't the old days. And if we, the enthusiasts, constantly call out F1 today as being complete rubbish, who the hell is going to enthuse to people today to get them interested?

We can't have it both ways. Either stop watching it altogether and be consistent in your collective dislike of modern F1, or get behind it and get other people enthused. We cannot batter it down at every turn, yet simultaneously say to each other "why does nobody watch it nowadays?"...

That's a fair point. This year was going to be my return to fandom, because of the new powertrains being a place where F1 was finally going back to being a technological pioneer on something that might filter down to road cars.

But, all the unhappiness about the (lack of) noise threw a wet blanket on it and nipped my return in the bud before we had the first race on US network TV (I don't get cable).

I think the increase in overtaking is still mostly a result of a bandaid, and the amazing increase in efficiency through new technology is the only thing that I would say is truly like F1 as it used to be.

While it's true any generation tends to think it was best in their earliest days, I think F1 has undergone a fundamental transition from being the wonderful blend of Battle of the Nerds and Battle of the Drivers, to being just the Battle of the Drivers, with the nerds just doing what little they can with handcuffs on. Unfettered nerds could diminish the drivers, and if the whole idea is the "show", it would threaten that.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Greem

(Lots of good stuff)...

What else, though? Technology? Pah. The cars have been sufficiently distanced from road cars since Chapman took a DFV and made it part of the stressed structure (if not before). The business angle though... the elitism... yeah, that might be not as good as it was 30 years ago. And that's why F1 is where it is, because it was made *brand* aspirational, rather than achievement.

Yeah, but those DFV cars still ran most races on closed public roads, and even had to cross a railroad crossing on one track, using treaded tires even when the weather was dry. The street races and Spa are all we have left of that, and they are a lot smoother than they were, because these cars couldn't handle roads like those. That's niggling. I get and agree with your basic point.

Originally Posted by Greem

Money. That's the root, isn't it?

Yes!

[Tucky]

Looks like the clampdown's happening.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115804

[chillibowl]

Lets see how it works in action but to me that reads like it's still possible to ask what the time difference is between one car and another and from that a smart driver should be able to work out where they are losing or gaining time.

If I'm reading that right then I'm fine with it.

Still not sure why anyone has a problem with an athlete being coached though.