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22 Oct 2009, 17:24 (Ref:2567270) | #26 | ||
The Scarlet Pimpernel
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The 6 bhrs is for cars up to 65 and Eau Rouge for obviously hookey cars with papers purported to be that period.Its JH dusbin for cars that should not really be allowed in but they have taken the money.Is that a decent explanation.
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22 Oct 2009, 18:03 (Ref:2567308) | #27 | ||
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Well yes,but you really shouldn't mince your word's.
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
22 Oct 2009, 19:21 (Ref:2567378) | #28 | |||
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You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter! |
23 Oct 2009, 02:25 (Ref:2567589) | #29 | ||
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I don't think it's "warts and all" Al. I do see your point re the flexibility thing but as you know it doesn't matter where you set the regs, there'll be others with alternative interpretations.
BTW, I'm not certain my understanding is correct. I do agree that the HTP could be a good thing for all historics but its like the MOT, it can only reflect the car on the day of inspection. |
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I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
24 Oct 2009, 08:41 (Ref:2568505) | #30 | |||
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Whereas a car that really did race in period cannot be raced as a historic race car if its owner failed to take part in an international race at the time. I sort of understand that international races were FIA licenced and national ones weren't, but that doesn't change history. |
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24 Oct 2009, 09:57 (Ref:2568545) | #31 | ||
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Mr Morley-Not sure that common sense has a place in Historic Racing any longer!
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john ruston |
24 Oct 2009, 11:05 (Ref:2568598) | #32 | |||
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
24 Oct 2009, 11:17 (Ref:2568611) | #33 | ||
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Despite all the answers I'm still none the wiser, but thanks anyway. Does anyone who may have too much time on their hands fancy putting up a list of the titles and what they apply too.
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24 Oct 2009, 13:45 (Ref:2568685) | #34 | |||
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Terry I wish you would stop re-iterating myths like this. I have several emails from Mike Mooney copied to a number of interested parties which clearly demonstrate his view that Griffiths had international race history in period. The issue has been not whether they competed but specification - in particular what width rear and what bonnet bulges and air intakes they had. There are very few photos of the cars taken at the events in which they competed, to confirm the position. Herewith an edited extract from a note from one of our UK FIA scrutineers which is very clear: The Grantura Engineering Ltd – TVR Griffith 200 was homologated on 1st August 1965 – Homologation recognition number 206. Prior to this date, several TVR Griffith cars competed in Sports car events, including P. Simpson in the AMOC Silverstone International Martini Trophy on 24th July 1965. Cars competing prior to the date of homologation would have been classified as a Group 4 Sports car. Four cars are believed to have competed Internationally after the date of homologation. The first was on the 12th September 1965 with a Griffith driven by USA drivers D. Heinz and Tom Harmar in a round of the USSRC at Road America. This series included classes for Prototype cars and GTs. Any International status of this event is unclear but I would expect this race was not running to FIA Appendix J regulations and is therefore immaterial for our purposes. The second known participation was of EHM Paul at Brands Hatch in the Redex Trophy race on 30th August 1965. This support race to the Guards Trophy was listed as a race for cars complying with Appendix J Group 3 regulations. However, the Redex Trophy race was not listed in the Official programme as being an International event and it has yet to be confirmed if this actual race was run under a National or International status permit.The second TVR No;106 on the entry list is believed to have non-started.If the Redex Trophy race at this meeting can be confirmed as being of International Status, Option 2 for any HTP applicant would be to replicate this actual car and the car would be classified as Period F - GTS. The third and fourth known participations were at Aspern in Austria on 17th October 1965. The first of these two was driven by well known Austrian rally driver; Otto Karger. The second entrant at Aspern was P. Simpson whose car was road registered; FDU 500C. The TVR Club newsletter dated December 1965 had a race report by P. Simpson who drove the car on the road from Birmingham to and from Austria for the race. Option three therefore would be to Apply for an HTP with a standard shaped car and the car would again be classified as Period F - GTS. Gerry Marshall also drove this works prepared car MMT 7C at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on 17th September 1966 (period G). Providing evidence can be found to confirm this support race at Oulton Park was of International status, option four would therefore be for an HTP applicant to apply for a similarly modified car in Period G - GTS So to answer Tim's question as far as HTP is concerned. A car must be built to the specification in its FIA homologation papers issued in period. In order to be accepted by a scrutineer, a car must both comply and have run in an international FIA sanctioned event in period. I think periods are: FIA Period E 1/1/47 to 31/12/61 FIA Period F 1/1/62 to 31/12/65 FIA Period G 1/1/66 to 31/12/71 FIA Period H 1/1/72 to 31/12/76 |
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24 Oct 2009, 22:08 (Ref:2568923) | #35 | |||
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25 Oct 2009, 15:31 (Ref:2569410) | #36 | |||
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But if you find something like a Turner or Rochdale that was built for and did dozens of races, in some cases winning many times, you can't race it as a historic unless one of the events it entered (or if they are being lenient a similar car) was an international event! |
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25 Oct 2009, 15:44 (Ref:2569417) | #37 | |
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If you do take a standard road car MGB or why, you have to turn it into an EXACT replica of the example that was raced internationally you cant "mix and match" And regarding the TVR I was the chap responsible for supplying the vital photo of Dr Paul at Brands international.
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25 Oct 2009, 17:59 (Ref:2569487) | #38 | ||
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From the thread title, what is EDA?
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25 Oct 2009, 18:39 (Ref:2569517) | #39 | ||
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Possibly a made up initial to show how confused I am over it all.
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25 Oct 2009, 20:26 (Ref:2569569) | #40 | ||
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A company in Leeds called Engine Data Analisis who helped me out once :-)
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25 Oct 2009, 20:29 (Ref:2569571) | #41 | ||
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I think I may have been thinking of EDF as my electricity bill had arrived that day.
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25 Oct 2009, 20:59 (Ref:2569594) | #42 | ||
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[QUOTE=FISCracer;2568685]Terry I wish you would stop re-iterating myths like this. I have several emails from Mike Mooney copied to a number of interested parties which clearly demonstrate his view that Griffiths had international race history in period.
Four cars are believed to have competed Internationally after the date of homologation. Key word is Believed, When I get the time I'll forward the mail I got from Mike.Perhaps that will dispell the 'myth'. |
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
26 Oct 2009, 08:26 (Ref:2569862) | #43 | ||
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26 Oct 2009, 08:27 (Ref:2569865) | #44 | |
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26 Oct 2009, 10:31 (Ref:2569940) | #45 | ||
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First this one of Terry's.Homologation is homologation-not something that is done for a discipline.It simply states that a particular number of cars were built to the same spec. The Marcos retro homologation rotates about the 'fact' that 100 identical cars were built in period and that the care has International history as a GT-it was accepted as such in period without being homologated.On that basis many years ago the HCC decided to go with it. |
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26 Oct 2009, 10:37 (Ref:2569944) | #46 | ||
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It ain't perfect but it is logical and as best as can be achieved really.Club cars-non International could have run to any spec. or regs. who knows/knew |
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26 Oct 2009, 10:39 (Ref:2569947) | #47 | ||
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26 Oct 2009, 10:44 (Ref:2569953) | #48 | ||
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It is not a perfect solution but it is much better than just saying any old race car. |
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26 Oct 2009, 10:47 (Ref:2569957) | #49 | |
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hence more LC's now than where ever made, likwise coopers, etc etc.
samep probably applies to anything competitive ? As jeremy points out, its difficult to justify or prove period build spec for non homologated cars, just a nice personal touch if you have a car with some documented histoire/specification. whether anyone else believes it is irrelevant! |
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26 Oct 2009, 10:52 (Ref:2569961) | #50 | ||
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Check the listings in old MSA Blue books for the calendars of the period to see whether the event was listed. Its all about specification in International events-not some old race spec. I am sure the VSCC would welcome you, they run old club races, the FIA -or its licencees run old International races.Why is that so difficult? Pre war is very simple look a the entry list it usuaaly solves the question. All this takes work , time and commitment I get fed up with people who fail to get this. |
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