Fia Htp. Enough Time Left?

[terence]

After reading various mags/speaking to different people,it would seem as though some grids will be a bit depleated in 2007 because of the lack of the newly required paperwork,has anyone heard of this or is it purely heresay?As I understand it ,the FIA will be hard pushed to accomodate all of the renewalls in time because of the tardiness of the owners to get the cars sorted out in time,its not the FIA who are to blame.

[Peter Mallett]

*Note to Jeremy Hall - Don't bite its only Terry with a quiet day on his hands. *

[Peter Horsman]

But what races/series does one actually need the new HTP papers for? I applied for mine in August 2006, and haven't got it yet. That's no adverse reflection on Marcus Pye, who has quite a number to deal with I understand. He rightly takes time to ensure that a particular spec is paper'able.

Maybe other organisations are not so fussy, and so we have (again) a two tier system!!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Peter Horsman

But what races/series does one actually need the new HTP papers for? I applied for mine in August 2006, and haven't got it yet. That's no adverse reflection on Marcus Pye, who has quite a number to deal with I understand. He rightly takes time to ensure that a particular spec is paper'able.

Maybe other organisations are not so fussy, and so we have (again) a two tier system!!

Maybe he is trying to decide which is the correct engine for a 17!!

[rogerwills]

I suspect the big issues will be for European run events rather than say Masters/Top Hat etc who seem to know the cars that are run and are perhaps more relaxed than say their teutonic bretheren.......

[Peter Horsman]

There are many correct engines for a 17 (!). Sadly, all quite expensive.

[john ruston]

Masters need the new paperwork for their series

[Jeremy Hall]

Minor hobby horse, but can I make it clear that the FIA has no role in the issue of HTP, or only a very minor one in allocating each one a number, and further takes not one penny piece of the fee charged by the ASN.
In the case of UK the MSA is wholly ansd solely responsible for getting the paperwork out.
Realistically there may be 400 HTP still needed for 2007, Marcus has an editorial role in the process, though the MSA are now loading more responsibilty on the Inspectors. If this is the case the MSA stand to receive 100 grand in income before, say April, cost of Marcus lets guess at 4 grand, perhaps just as a reasionable duty of care for the licence holders MSA might consider some help. Certainly as a member of the MSA Historic committee I will be strongly promoting that view.

[PeterMorley]

Have just filled in a blank form for a car that has an old homologation form.

What struck me was that the form is exactly the same, just a few sections removed from it - even the section numbers are the same (at least it made it easy to fill the form in).

Given the information on the new forms will be exactly the same as on old ones, why insist on new forms????
The old ones could be added to a register just as easily as the new ones..........

As far as I can tell the Belgian fee is somewhat lower than the UK, 50 euros to the FIA for the form and 75 euros for the 'inspection'.

Might be an idea to pop over and get forms here (as you are entitled to do under European law)!

(At the same time you could save the cost of the trip by having your road car serviced here - parents had the misfortune to break down in the UK and couldn't believe how much they charged in the UK to replace a fan belt, or how long it took, and as for failing to tighten it up that was taking the pi$$ - won't be going near Sytner's in Nottingham ever again).

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by terence bower

As I understand it ,the FIA will be hard pushed to accomodate all of the renewalls in time because of the tardiness of the owners to get the cars sorted out in time,its not the FIA who are to blame.

A lot of cars aren't ready until just before their first event - engine builders are flooded at this time of year, chassis rebuilds etc all take time.

If they insist on the car being presented in a complete, painted, condition it can be difficult to do so well in advance of the event.

The FIA know this is normal - many current cars are only accepted (crash tested, homologated etc) in the days before their first event.
It isn't so different with old cars, and it was only made clear very late in 2006 that old forms (the ones with exactly the same information on) would not be accepted in 2007 - the amount of 'work' (form stamping) generated by this was predictable so they should be prepared for it.

[Jeremy Hall]

Let me repeat myself the issuning of HTP is nothing to do with the FIA. The World Motor Sport Council accepted the new HJTP in October 2004 and it was avaialble to all ASN from then onwards. At the October 2004 meeting it was also agreed by WMSC that it would come into force obligatorily on 1.1.2007, from an FIA perspective nothing at all has changed.
If ASN have failed to get a grip on the situation that is not the business of FIA, after all all the major ASN are on World Council and they all agreed to the change. The MSA have repeatedly been asked to publiciise the situation in Motorsorts Now and have totally failed to do anything about it, I was reliably informewd that there was some editorial one quarter but at the last moment they sold the space for advertising so the article was chopped out.
Finally with regard to your comment about RACB paying FIA , I sassure you they do not.Let me say it again FIA get nothing at all from any ASN in respect of any HTP.

[terence]

No names,but several owners/drivers are refusing to have the cars inspected .If that is the case ,then I suppose there will be depleted grids,which in turn could result in higher entry fees,or no racing!Peter,how could you even think that,I,ve been at work all day

[esper]

Well all of this is is last years pieve of cake for most of the dutch! I will never forget the picture act. To put some rusty bumpers on my racehealey!!!!!!!
Then for the money somebody came all the way to stick the hologramsticker on a "visible" place, much to the pleasure of international Scrutineers................ Since 2006 Scrutineering can cause Hernia.

[zefarelly]

I got my papers long before the cut off date/change date/panic period so I'll be back on the sofa relaxing in a mo, the only thing I have to panic about is getting the car prepped by March

I was thinking having read a few articles recently how one becomes an inspector ? ? ? I'd love to get involved with that kind of thing ( I find it fascinating, sad I know) although my knowledge is restricted somewhat to tin tops and lotus/fords mostly

[terence]

Zef,I,d already spoken to someone ages ago about this very subject,no reply so I guess they dont need help

[TorqueWench]

I must admit I have been a-wondering about these HTP paper things - I intend to take Saloon and GT cars up to 1980 to the Ring in 2007 - will they all need papers - or is it only pre '71? This will be an ADAC meeting, and therefore international, although probably not an FIA-event.

Any thoughts Jeremy? (Say Hi to Judith from me as well!)

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

I must admit I have been a-wondering about these HTP paper things - I intend to take Saloon and GT cars up to 1980 to the Ring in 2007 - will they all need papers - or is it only pre '71? This will be an ADAC meeting, and therefore international, although probably not an FIA-event.

Any thoughts Jeremy? (Say Hi to Judith from me as well!)

If the event / race has been registered as NEAFP then it runs under National rules and car papers are not required.

[Jeremy Hall]

Don't bet on that ! Many , indeed most, countries in the world base their motor sport entirely on the FIA International Sporting Code and its appendices, and those include Appendix K. The effect is that, at least in the first instance the cars must comply with the technical specifications and have an HTP to prove that. For example Masters will run at many NEAFT events but will require HTP.The words NEAFP stand for National Event with Authorised Foreign Participation, and if the national rules are to Appendix K you need an HTP. You may find that some countries have a one year waiver.
Hi Sarah.

[TorqueWench]

Hi Jeremy, Hapy New Year etc!

What I don't get, and I've emailed Marcus on this, is do all of our cars need HTP - eg: Lotus 7 S2 (1962) which of course has no international history and therefore is not App K, or my Lancia Beta (1977), or our son's Scimitar (1972) because we will race them at the 'Ring in the CSCC race, but will the ADAC expect them to have HTPs?

[Jeremy Hall]

As we all know Lotus 7's don't get HTP-confirmed recently by FIA Technical Working Group, they have no International history because they were never acceptable for any International event because they had no doors and the various appendices of the ISC, C or later J , always required at least one door. The Beta was homologated and did International events-Monte Carlo rally or some such, so can get an HTP. The Scimitar I think depends on the date and engine, the early car did a rally, with the straight six engine I think but the later Essex car I don't think has any history.
Now to the 64,000 dollar question-I don't know but I would not be surprised if they did want paperwork. certainly it is usual in the Tuetonic countries to need some sort of internationally recognised wagen pass. Is is all about insurance as usual and often the ASN national rules need these papers to satisfy their legal obligations. I had an Austrian on the phone last week who had bought an LM3000 and Austria won't let it on a track without homologation papers or a period national wagenpass, and when I explained that such things did not exist in the UK it looked like it wasn't going to be let out at all.
Sorry I can't be more informative.

[simon drabble]

Jeremy - perhaps a more interesting USD 64 000 question would be, in your mind, what cars are eligible for papers in the pre 66 GT and TC categories but have largely been overlooked..

[Jeremy Hall]

I'm stopping for the year about now-I'm trying to stay on top of the HTP situation even if Motorsports House seems indifferent-but to your question Simon-the Holy Grail -do you know where it is Jeremy ?
Well would I tell -actually yes, but I think it a bit like the pot of gold at the rainbows end-there ain't one.We are now nearly twenty years into GT/TC Appendix K and I can't think that if there is something we don't know about the ''questing voles'' ( 20 pounds off HTP inspection fee to the first person who gets the quote) have not found already. What actually happens is like the Corvette scenario suddenly some group decides this is the route, but I don't think they are right.We had the Turner which some one built a couple of years ago but another good idea gone wrong. I do think you could have al ot of fun in a 997 Ginetta G4, but the class breaks work against it. At the end ogf the day what won then should win now-but Ferraris won't play and in Touring cars the Alfa Lotus Cortina thing goes on.The interesting thing is to read Autosport of 65 and there was a firm belief that the GTA's were cheating by running drilled suspension etc.
Happy and healthy new year to all our readers-some of us are actually on the same side as the competitors!

[kickstart]

Does anyone know if the requirement to have HTP's will spread to Barry Sidery-Smith's races ? I really hope not as my model of car (crossle 9s - zetec) does not have any international history and therefore as I understand matters can not get an HTP.

[JRTM]

I think this is an interesting topic and one that is confused by several parties who dont seem quite to be on the same wavelength. For example, I recognize that the FIA dont make any cash out of this but some folk certainly do and the costs appear to be quite arbitrary from country to country and local deal to local deal.

in addition it seems to me that there is NO doubt that there will be a large number of cars who need papers who dont have them in time - there is a huge waiting list and the MSA have not even acknowledged many applications that were submitted months ago. Where I do criticize the FIA is the unwillingness to even countenence a delay to the system because this is not entirely the fault of competitors. For example why not designate 2007 as the year during which all cars need papers sorted. It is 2007 tomorrow and I cannot see how people wanting to send cars to Australia for example would do so without the papers sorted.

Finally - why exactly is the MSA presiding over a process that will cost most people about £350 per car to provide them papers that tell them less about the car than exisiting FIA papers and dont even comment about whether it was built in 1956 or 2006. Surely that cannot be right?

[Farbrooke]

I thought most of Barry's Belgium races took place within NEAFT events - if having an HTP is a requirement then Maters Top Hat fields may be a bit slim as well