[Team] Aston Martin Racing in 2023. One of the cars still has Alonso.

[greentrumpet]

Lance Troll?

[Mike Harte]

In case anyone is interested, Motorsport.com in their latest email newsletter states the following:

"Lawrence Stroll’s consortium owns an 18% stake in the Aston Martin Lagonda automotive business. But he owns the F1 team lock, stock and brand-new factory."

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Alonso made his Indianapolis 500 debut in 2017 with McLaren-Honda-Andretti Autosport, leading 27 laps before the engine blew. Come 2020, referring to the Honda PU as a “GP2 engine”, wouldn't have helped.

Right. Here is a few year old video that goes into the entire story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehkkmiYZzc0

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

In case anyone is interested, Motorsport.com in their latest email newsletter states the following:

Thanks for the sanity. The simple point I made was that AML don't own the F1 team in any way. Some want to get super-excited about that, but I can't help that they seem to have precious little corporate understanding.

[Skam85]

peebee is a master baiter.

[bathurst77]

I wonder what Christian H and co think

a few years ago RBR were having all sorts of engine troubles with honda, and were very vocal criticising them and saying they just werent good enough
In the end honda had enough and said that they would pull out at the end of the following year and RBR can look elsewhere.

So RBPT was created to develop an engine for when Honda pulled the pin. IN the short term they could use the honda until the contract expired.

The following year the engine problems with the honda engine (under rbpt) seemed to be resolved, rbr was winning and all the love was coming back.

Honda reverses their decision and decides to stay. the Honda logo is huge on the RBR car. But RBPT now have a non honda future mapped out. (probably with ford)

So honda now go to AM

Its like RBR let honda get away on them

[bathurst77]

Maybe Alonso will be the new Vettel

Tough and abrasive and dislikable when young, but now as he enters his later years, more relaxed open sharing and fun.
(Look at the advice he was giving to Lance about brakes during the race, and saying Let him have a go etc)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I wonder what Christian H and co think

a few years ago RBR were having all sorts of engine troubles with honda, and were very vocal criticising them and saying they just werent good enough
In the end honda had enough and said that they would pull out at the end of the following year and RBR can look elsewhere.

So RBPT was created to develop an engine for when Honda pulled the pin. IN the short term they could use the honda until the contract expired.

The following year the engine problems with the honda engine (under rbpt) seemed to be resolved, rbr was winning and all the love was coming back.

Honda reverses their decision and decides to stay. the Honda logo is huge on the RBR car. But RBPT now have a non honda future mapped out. (probably with ford)

So honda now go to AM

Its like RBR let honda get away on them

I know you are trying to give a quick history of Honda post McLaren, but I feel your description doesn't quite give the same flavor as to what was going on at that time period. I was pretty heavily following much of the Honda development from 2017 and forward. With Honda moving to TR in 2018 and then both TR and RBR in 2019. 2018 (first year after McLaren) was for sure a rebuilding year as they reworked concepts and progressively moved away from the concepts used during the McLaren era.

Saying that RBR was vocal with complaints to Honda and this driving Honda to decide they are leaving F1 is not correct at all. RBR pushed Honda, but also partnered strongly with Honda. If my memory serves me, RBR were not publicly criticizing Honda in the way that McLaren was and that it was (and still is) a good partnership. As I say above, 2018 was a rough year as Honda worked to improve power and reliability. But RBR saw it was working and pulled the trigger to move in 2019. They had won their first race in the Honda by the 9th round and won three in that season. 2020 was continued improvement, but still not on par with the Mercedes benchmark. 2021 they finally had it all together.

And yes, Honda announced they were leaving F1 after 2021 season. But that was driven by lack of alignment with the current (then) engine regulations and Honda's stated corporate technology direction. With Honda wanting to focus on electric. Relationship between RBR and Honda was very good. Honda didn't tell RBR to "look elsewhere" as clearly they worked a solution so that Honda would remain, but the engine would be run under the RBPT banner. The racing side of Honda wanted to as much as they could to reduce the pain to RBR and TR with them being told to exit by Honda corporate. With initially RBPT expecting to pick up a large amount of the slack, but after additional negotiations, for the most part RBPT was a shadow organization that was fronting Honda. Honda continued (and still continues) development on the power units. Even with the development freeze that was negotiated, clearly power unit suppliers continue to perform "reliability development". And yes, during this time period RBPT was also hiring people left and right not just to support the current Honda effort, but also was looking toward 2026. And the fact that the combo of RBR and Honda did so well during the 2021 seasons, no doubt had an impact on thinking at Honda corporate. They may not have fully reversed course, but nearly so.

As discussions for the 2026 power unit regulations progressed, Honda signed up to participate. And I think just like Audi, Porsche and maybe others, they pushed their agenda of lower costs and a larger focus on the hybrid/electric side. The manufactures got what they wanted and Audi and Honda signed up to be providers in 2026.

As I call out earlier in this thread, while RBR/Honda partnership was still strong, RBR clearly understood that they are totally dependent upon power unit partners. Even a good partner can surprise them. So they had a bad partner with Renault and was in a bad place with them and couldn't leave fast enough and in a good place with Honda and probably caught off guard with Honda corporate pulling the plug (at least somewhat pulling the plug).

So it's not so much that RBR "let Honda get away" an more that they decided to move out of Mom and Dad's house and live on their own. So they made the decision to just break from looking to someone else as a power unit supplier. They already were down this road with respect to supporting Honda via RBPT but also were part of the discussions as to the 2026 power unit regulations. No doubt RBPT had a focus on simplify and lower/fixed costs (which were also baked into the 2026 regulations). They wanted to show up in 2026 with expectations that someone like Mercedes (or Honda) would not overwhelm them via money spent between now and then. That is why the 2026 regulations are VERY restrictive on both technology (the ICE is nearly spec) and with cost caps on R&D. The caps don't start in 2026, they are already in place. Everyone building 2026 engines are living under R&D caps today. The regulations are so prescriptive as to also specify types and quantity of various test/development components.

I digress and am rambling. I just am saying I think you may not be giving the overall partnership from start to finish enough credit. It was a bit of a slog between 2018 and 2021, but I think both parties were committed to making it work and worked hard together. Honda basically went from ground zero (way behind the development curve and starting later than the others) and by the end of this formula maybe have produced the best power unit.

I am sure in a way RBR will miss Honda and Honda will miss RBR. I fully expect Honda to product a good power unit in 2026 and frankly probably better than whatever RBPT creates (at least initially). But I also expect much closer parity in performance of the 2026 power units than what we saw during this current set of power unit regulations. These new regulations are crafted specifically to prevent anyone from replicating what Mercedes did with the current spec.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The simple point I made was that AML don't own the F1 team in any way.

Maybe - but for the sake of the conversation, why were you making that point in the first place?

IIRC, it came about following a thought about why Geely might have made the increased investment into the car manufacturer, when the F1 team was due to switch PU supplier in the near future.

In the context of this thread and the F1 team, it is a valid query and worthy of further discussion. It might be true that the F1 team is not owned by the car manufacturer - but the truth remains that they are linked.

To quote peebee2 - 'The world simply isn’t as black and white as you’d clearly love it to be…'

To fully understand the connections (that do exist) between Geely and the Aston Martin F1 team, you would have to have full cognisance of the corporate structure of:
Aston Martin Lagonda
Aston Martin Lagonda Group
Aston Martin Investments
Aston Martin Holdings (Uk)
Aston Martin Lagonda Global Holdings
AMR GP
Amr Performance Group
Amr Gp Holdings
Racing Point Uk Holdings
Jonathan Andrew Dudman
Lawrence Sheldon Strulovitch
Yew Tree Consortium

[steve_r]

Whilst their senior management do their morning stretches do Honda pipe out music to the Hokey-Kokey? What other reason can there be for the the in-out-in-out shake-it-all-about "strategy" that they have for participation in F1?

That what its all about.

Waiting for the announcement that they will be leaving again in 2028.

[S griffin]

Honda's strategy doesn't seem to make much sense compared to others who have been in F1. They seem to make so many U-Turns you wonder how much they want to be in F1. I find it hard to work out. I am amazed they are coming back so soon after everything.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Honda's strategy doesn't seem to make much sense compared to others who have been in F1. They seem to make so many U-Turns you wonder how much they want to be in F1. I find it hard to work out. I am amazed they are coming back so soon after everything.

I presume they have decided to remain in F1, rather than coming back, because of the current success they have been having with Red Bull.

[crmalcolm]

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?s...DeRr4EyAn2oNcl

[GT6]

best quali for alonso in years and almost got pole, good start tomorrow and he could win

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Honda's strategy doesn't seem to make much sense compared to others who have been in F1.

It's at the whims of the board, the same as BMW, Toyota, Peugeot, Renault (who did close down their original French team, then buy Benetton, then sell Benetton, then buy Benetton back again) etc. The engineers are probably always keen.

Of course it would be better if Honda had been in Grand Prix car racing as a constructor continuously from the 1960's to the present day, but it was not to be. They even withdraw from Grand Prix motorcycle racing for some time.

[S griffin]

Yes, that’s the problem. The manufacturers will only enter a motorsport series if it suits them at the time. And will leave the moment it doesn’t. That’s why you should never rely too much on manufacturers.

[crmalcolm]

Jessica Hawkins becomes first woman to test F1 car since 2018

'Aston Martin announced on Tuesday that Hawkins completed 26 laps in their 2021 car at the Hungaroring near Budapest last Thursday.

The former W Series racer, 28, alternated in the car with test and reserve driver Felipe Drugovich.'

[Richard C]

At first I was struggling to understand how AM was doing testing right now. Then I realized it was the 2021 car which is too old to be part of the current spec test restrictions.

Richard

[Hawkwood]

The Twitter comments are as appalling as you would expect.

[GTRMagic]

Why wouldn’t Andretti Global, with its deep links to Honda, be looking at Aston Martin as a team to buy?

Rebranding it Andretti would be simple enough, and they could exchange one slow owner’s son for another….

[broadrun96]

Nah, Lance is FAR better than Marco. Herta doesn't own any of that but rather a program with TCRs from Hyundai and I think Indy NXT cars.

[steve_r]

I've often wondered what would happen if you took a front running car from the very start of the season and put it into storage, and wheeled it out again completely undeveloped at the end of the season, just how far it would have fallen down the grid compared with the other teams who have made various upgrades through the year. Now we know.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I've often wondered what would happen if you took a front running car from the very start of the season and put it into storage, and wheeled it out again completely undeveloped at the end of the season, just how far it would have fallen down the grid compared with the other teams who have made various upgrades through the year. Now we know.

Bit like if you can copy someone's design but not really understand quite why it works?

[chillibowl]

but what would you say is limiting their ability to understand? skill, money, time, facilities, staff...all of the above?

not the first time we have seen AM come out of the gates really strong (due to their off season development strategy as you allude to) only to find the car goes backwards as the season rolls on.

one would almost have to think that Alonso is actually finding this season as frustrating as his return to Alpine season?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Bit like if you can copy someone's design but not really understand quite why it works?

I believe this is a core and fundamental challenge for those who copy the designs of others. If you don't know how it work, you can't evolve or improve it.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but what would you say is limiting their ability to understand? skill, money, time, facilities, staff...all of the above?

I think all of that can boiled down to money (money buys facilities, money buys staff... staff = skill and skill reduces time).

There is one additional dimension and that is effective leadership that is able to use those resources correctly. And this starts at the very top (above team principle level). And that can't be bought, you either have it (historically Red Bull as one example and Mercedes as another) or you don't (recent higher up drama at Renault as one example). I have no insight or opinion as to where Aston Martin fits into that dimension.

But it's a moot point as money is very much restricted these days. So it's hard or impossible to brute force your way into "understand" by spending money. So the understanding is likely to come slowly over time. Those who figure it out first get the leg up on the others.

Richard