MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Has any circuit that has run a tier one event not made money from it?

to my knowledge from the start which was Motor Race NZ Ltd to the present day no shareholding club has ever lost money.

And Brian perhaps some of the motorsort knockers should get some balls and put their names to their posts and stand up and be counted.

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

to my knowledge from the start which was Motor Race NZ Ltd to the present day no shareholding club has ever lost money.

And Brian perhaps some of the motorsort knockers should get some balls and put their names to their posts and stand up and be counted.

Bill

How much money have you made from printing tickets and programs for the tier one meetings over the years while a board member of TMC/MPL?

You ask people to be counted by naming themselves.

You will be counted all right, by the time the authorities at the Companies Office and other places have their day with you after all you have done as a board member of the TMC/MPL shambles.

You astound me writing here..........

[Bill Brown]

personally no name none always quoted on the open market

[pukekoheracer]

Originally Posted by Jerico

Hello Brian are you still there? Tui billboard.

To busy working on his next post or even better drafting a letter to be placed on his desk first thing Monday Morning.

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

personally no name none always quoted on the open market

Thanks Bill

great, pleased to hear that.

Can you explain this please?

'always quoted on the open market'

[pukekoheracer]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

personally no name none always quoted on the open market

What does that mean in plain English?

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by pukekoheracer

What does that mean in plain English?

Seems pretty clear to me


Wow, a few MSNZ people actually bother to respond on here and the abuse starts. Not just having a go, but petty BS abuse.
what a pack of

If you actually want them to comment constructively how about you do the same? Then again when lacking actual facts and just working off conjecture and misplaced theories, I guess thats pretty hard to do.

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Seems pretty clear to me


Wow, a few MSNZ people actually bother to respond on here and the abuse starts. Not just having a go, but petty BS abuse.
what a pack of

If you actually want them to comment constructively how about you do the same? Then again when lacking actual facts and just working off conjecture and misplaced theories, I guess thats pretty hard to do.

It’s not clear.

Answer the question please?

Its not abuse either.

Bill Brown was a director of a company representing the shareholding clubs in TMC/MPL that traded while insolvent. He will be charged accordingly eventually and this is a serious charge.

He was not a MSNZ person. He was a director of a company that has lost a lot of money through poor management and governance and the ordinary club members of MSNZ who will one way or another fund the losses, will have their say about this some day soon in the correct forum be it a court or MSNZ AGCM.

The next AGCM will be one to be at...............

Nice picture of you Bill, on the Pope Print website by the way.

[Bill Brown]

pukekohe racer
It means quite simply that no I did not profit from the work and yes the company I work for quoted on the open market and no name is who you are.

and to add to that the comment "you astound me writing here ...." is this a forum or a knockers outlet only.

......and Mr Revhead Bill Brown a MSNZ man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by KRDG

It’s not clear.

Answer the question please?

Its not abuse either.

Bill Brown was a director of a company representing the shareholding clubs in TMC/MPL that traded while insolvent. He will be charged accordingly eventually and this is a serious charge.

He is and was not a MSNZ person. He was a director of a company that has lost a lot of money through poor management and governance and the ordinary club members of MSNZ who will one way or another fund the losses will have their say about this some day soon in the correct forum be it a court or MSNZ AGCM.

The next AGCM will be one to be at...............

Nice picture of you Bill, on the Pope Print website by the way.

It's clear as clear can be.

Strong allegations there, got proof?

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

is this a forum or a knockers outlet only.

sorry Bill, only applies if you knock MSNZ.
just make sure the beloved Supertoures don't cop any flack or there will be hell to pay.

[Member CCC]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Welcome to the forum Brian - good to see someone from MSNZ posting here after the MSNZ blog has unfortunately seemed to have gone silent.
I'm a little bemused with the claims of innuendo, speculation and bull****. While such things do feature from time to time, surely not everything on this forum falls into these categories. For example, with the subject issue of the 2012/13 Tier 1 calendar are the following statements from recent postings bull****?
- MSNZ are organising the Tier series and expect the circuits/clubs to take the financial risk of running the meetings
- Part of the MSNZ proposal is that some of the Tier 1 classes are to be provided with free entry
- MSNZ are proposing to the circuits/clubs that the cost of running the meeting can in major part be recovered from gate takings
- Are some of the circuits/clubs disputing the extent of gate takings and are accordingly claiming that the Tier 1 meetings will not be financially viable
- As a result have some of circuits listed on the Tier 1 calendar not confirmed that they will run the Tier 1 event.
Hopefully a response to the above will help sort the reality from the bull****.

Hi Roger here are my questions to you:
- Don't most clubs/circuits take commercial risk when they organize events?
- My club were left with a debt from ST of over 70k.
- How does that model work?
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- How many and which clubs/circuits won't run Tier 1 events this season?
- Why was TMC started?

Interested in your answers

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

I note with interest the comments on this forum regarding the running of MotorSport New Zealand's Championships this summer, which on the whole are based on a lack of knowledge and a great deal of speculation.

Bill Brown is correct with his statement that if Clubs/Circuits have issues around the financial viability of the events they re-negotiate or walk away.

No individual or organisation is forcing Clubs and/or Circuits to get involved. All negotiations have been carried out against good business practice with all the facts on the table.

If you want to know the real facts, please contact me. Lets stop the innuendo and speculation. I suspect that the facts will not be half as exciting as the bull**** currently appearing on this forum.

knowledge is msnz is employing the same **** individuals that are only looking out for the greater good of filling the personal wallet.

HOW about msnz governs the sport and not enters into promotion and running events? oh sorry 1st sentence said why.

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

Hi Roger here are my questions to you:
- Don't most clubs/circuits take commercial risk when they organize events?
- My club were left with a debt from ST of over 70k.
- How does that model work?
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- How many and which clubs/circuits won't run Tier 1 events this season?
- Why was TMC started?

Interested in your answers

70k debt from st? i dont believe it

[Member CCC]

Originally Posted by Blackpearl

70k debt from st? i dont believe it

As published to the members!

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

As published to the members!

well i am not a member so show me the figures.

[DX20VT]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

As published to the members!

And was talked about on this forum months ago,
(although the forums cleanups by Woolley seem to have deleted it)

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

Hi Roger here are my questions to you:
- Don't most clubs/circuits take commercial risk when they organize events?
- My club were left with a debt from ST of over 70k.
- How does that model work?
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- How many and which clubs/circuits won't run Tier 1 events this season?
- Why was TMC started?

Interested in your answers

I think you have missed the point of my post. What I was commenting on was in response to Brian's suggestion that posts here were bull****. I was asking him if the listed statements constituted bull**** or not. My understanding is that the listed statements are more likely to be factual rather than bull**** and accordingly Brian may have been too sweeping in his claim that this forum consists of innuendo, speculation and bull**** .

[Mr Revhead]

Nevertheless, how about answering Members CCC questions?
Especially:
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- How many and which clubs/circuits won't run Tier 1 events this season?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Nevertheless, how about answering Members CCC questions?
Especially:
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- How many and which clubs/circuits won't run Tier 1 events this season?

- The potential gate taking figures that I heard proposed by MSNZ for a Tier 1 event at the specific circuits were in the range of $20,000 to $30,000. The context was that the specific circuits considered they would make a loss of around these figures and MSNZ were proposing that the loss would be offset by gate takings - the circuits considered that the Tier 1 product would not attain this level of gate takings.
- I understand that the circuits in doubt for the Tier 1 events include HD and Taupo. Additionally, I understand NZIGP who had run Tier 1 at Pukekohe for eons were not even initially contacted by MSNZ and the track owner (Counties Racing Club) does not put motor racing events so an organising club was required.

[Icarus_nz]

Using RogerH's $20000 - $30000 divided by a $30 ticket price thats 667 - 1000 paying customers.
But that is gross income not profit.

Brian, welcome to the forum.
Please don't discredit yourself with a single post.
If you filter the 'BS' there are reoccuring themes.

• There is enormous passion for the sport evidenced here.
• There is also a deep burning anger for the actions of a few, the inaction of the many and the inability to effect change.
• People would like open and accurate communication from MSNZ
• Participants in the sport would like to see the govering body get on with its core responsibility of Governing

Motorsport attracts a wide range of people. Far from the media portrayal of 'petrol heads' the large majority of competitors and officials competing at the premier level in the sport are sucessful, competitive individuals.

A forum but its nature is about debate. You should expect to be challenged.
You should accept that in this modern age, perception is as powerful as fact

Not that ten-tenths is THE forum for all discussion but for your own credibility, having made a first post you need to continue posting.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by DX20VT

And was talked about on this forum months ago,
(although the forums cleanups by Woolley seem to have deleted it)

Probably, I'm almost surprised there's anything left...

Actually, that's not true, there has been a fair bit of decent debate in amongst the occasional fights, so now here's a thought - you have an actual board member here willing to discuss. Now you may not agree with him - or maybe you will - but if we can debate this properly and politely there's a chance we might get some replies. If you all just gang up, though, no chance.

[MS Fan]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Probably, I'm almost surprised there's anything left...

Actually, that's not true, there has been a fair bit of decent debate in amongst the occasional fights, so now here's a thought - you have an actual board member here willing to discuss. Now you may not agree with him - or maybe you will - but if we can debate this properly and politely there's a chance we might get some replies. If you all just gang up, though, no chance.

Well said Woolley

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Using RogerH's $20000 - $30000 divided by a $30 ticket price thats 667 - 1000 paying customers.
But that is gross income not profit.

I think on reflection I didn't explain the situation clearly last night (it was around midnight).

The scenario is more like the circuits doing their figures for the proposed Tier 1 event taking into consideration all the costs and all the income (including their estimate of likely gate takings). The outcome is a loss for putting on the meeting of around $20,000 to $30,000. The issue then comes down to MSNZ (wearing it's Tier 1 promoters hat) taking the view that this loss could be made up as the circuit had (in their opinion) underestimated the gate takings.

It could have been read that my posting was suggesting that the total gate takings were $20,000 to $30,000 - that is not correct - this figure represents the difference between the circuit/club's view of gate takings considering the product on offer and MSNZ's view as the promoter of the Tier 1 Series.

The outcome could end up like Bill says - if the figures don't work out then the event doesn't happen.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

As published to the members!

Show us the figures or the communication - I don't believe that either. I can believe they may have been a bit slower than people liked paying the bills, but I bet they have paid if it is money they owe.

What's neat about this thread is that it can't be too far off the mark as it bringing them all out for a comment. That's good, but may be Brian should just comment and answer the very real questions from people paying his salary.

Revhead Kerry Cooper, Promax Julian Hardy and Straightline Geoff Short should refrain from winding people up whilst Brian answers the questions posed one by one. There is nothing unreasonable in that. At the moment every time a reasonable question is asked this lot come back with some rhetorical mightier than thou comment.

Please remember that even before V8ST - this lot were running up staggering levels of debt. That is not in dispute. So questions directed to them about that debt and how it came about are entirely reasonable.