[Team] Aston Martin Racing in 2023. One of the cars still has Alonso.

[ascarracinguk]

Ferrari protesting and asking for clarity?!! REALLY!!!

Talking about pot, kettle, black......I hope the media and other teams don’t let them get away with that slice of irony!

[Moneyseeker]

RP should push for full disclosure on the FIA's secret settlement with Ferrari and their disqualification from the 2019 championship and suitable fine...

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Because the FIA does NOT make this decision. The FIA is NOT the stewards, please understand that. The race stewards make the decision based on the FIA and team testimony and report their finding. The FIA calls teams to "court" on behalf of the stewards. One should read the regs and processes.

You're close but not quite right. The FIA definitely makes this decision, as the stewards are part of the FIA and the protests have been lodged with the stewards, so it is definitely an FIA decision, by the FIA stewards in this case.

The FIA technical department is another part of the organisation and whilst providing evidence to the stewards and investigating on the stewards' behalf does not of itself make the decision on guilt/innocence, nor on penalty - those are the stewards' decisions (for now).

The comment you quoted and replied to asked why the FIA was taking so long to make a decision re the Tracing Point brake ducts and the poster was spot on - definitely an FIA decision, taken by the FIA Stewards, with evidence and input from the FIA technical department.

[ascarracinguk]

The other interesting side to this is Mclaren....protesting a team, who’s engine you are getting next year, potentially dragging their name though the mud by association isn’t a smart move in the long term. In the short term it may win you points, in the long term it may cost them.

[S griffin]

So are most other teams jumping on Renault’s bandwagon? Doesn’t surprise me, some will demean others when this sort of thing happens, to try and tell everyone this team is doing something illegal, unlike us

[Tourer]

Back in 2004, there was a big dust-up here in Oz when one of the Supercar teams breached the testing and technical rules.

There was concern in the paddock and at Supercars themselves that even though the team might get penalised, it would have gained from the cheating it did through the rest of the season.

So Supercars submitted the idea of a "cheater's start" for the team concerned, for the next 6 races. The team's 2 cars would have to start from pit exit, one whole lap after the rest of the field, putting them a lap down from the time they started and thus defeating any advantage from their cheating.

The Stewards accepted that submission and the penalty was applied (later reduced to 3 races under appeal, due to the length of the appeal process).

Maybe there needs to be some creative thinking applied in this case? The Tracing Point cars have every appearance of a Merc copy - in this case the brake ducts have been singled out but no doubt with diligence there'll be part after part that can be protest on the pink cars - and given this decision, I suspect not just by Renault.

Better to come up with a decision where the other teams can see there is no long-term advantage for Tracing Point - that might be enough to settle it all down.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

The other interesting side to this is Mclaren....protesting a team, who’s engine you are getting next year, potentially dragging their name though the mud by association isn’t a smart move in the long term. In the short term it may win you points, in the long term it may cost them.

So McLaren is using Tracing Point (sorry, Aston Martin) engines next year? Missed that

I know what you mean but then protests to get clarification on rules are not unusual in F1 and in this case, Merc hasn't been protested by anyone.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Tourer

So McLaren is using Tracing Point (sorry, Aston Martin) engines next year? Missed that

I know what you mean but then protests to get clarification on rules are not unusual in F1 and in this case, Merc hasn't been protested by anyone.

Yes I realise Mercedes haven’t been protested but they are being dragged through this by association....they supplied the brakes that RP are using, RP copied the merc....

...to the uneducated Mercedes are complicit in this...

...actually now Ferrari and McLaren have protested this, il be surprised if RP don’t appeal the decision past the FIA to the international sports court thingy (sorry can’t remember what it’s called!) just to clear their name...let’s face it, stroll has the money.

I think if this decision was final and no one protested, that would be the end of it, but I can see this going much further now, to the detriment of the sport. Disappointing really.

[Moneyseeker]

It's all a ploy led by Renault to win the WCC by default, Cyril has worked out they won't win it on performance so they will protest their way to victory. Starting on safe ground with RP, then maybe Ferrari for last years debacle, then RBR and AT for being a fizzy drink that used to be banned in France, then their compadre McLaren for not buying their engines next year and poaching Danny Ric.

So there you have it, Renault wins the 2020 championships, Cyril us where en France and Renault agrees to stay in F1 forever.

Allegedly...


Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

It's all a ploy led by Renault to win the WCC by default, Cyril has worked out they won't win it on performance so they will protest their way to victory. Starting on safe ground with RP, then maybe Ferrari for last years debacle, then RBR and AT for being a fizzy drink that used to be banned in France, then their compadre McLaren for not buying their engines next year and poaching Danny Ric.

So there you have it, Renault wins the 2020 championships, Cyril us where en France and Renault agrees to stay in F1 forever.

Allegedly...


Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

Plus of course Mercedes for selling stuff to RP in the first place...

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

It's all a ploy led by Renault to win the WCC by default, Cyril has worked out they won't win it on performance so they will protest their way to victory. Starting on safe ground with RP, then maybe Ferrari for last years debacle, then RBR and AT for being a fizzy drink that used to be banned in France, then their compadre McLaren for not buying their engines next year and poaching Danny Ric.

So there you have it, Renault wins the 2020 championships, Cyril us where en France and Renault agrees to stay in F1 forever.

Allegedly...


Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

Wouldn’t be th first time Renault got a leg up in the championship.....wasn’t it the case in the latter part of the V10 era and v8 era with red bull?

Can’t remember the specifics but they were given dispensations to get their engines up to par with others

[wolfhound]

I wonder how long it will take for some other teams to look at Haas and Alfa Romeos to see how close they look to the mother ship Ferrari?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Tourer

You're close but not quite right. The FIA definitely makes this decision, as the stewards are part of the FIA and the protests have been lodged with the stewards, so it is definitely an FIA decision, by the FIA stewards in this case..

Careful, he’ll be on his bedroom keyboard to tell you how wrong you are.

Anybody who has worked in any FIA championship knows you are right. The FIA appoint the stewards, monitor the stewards, clothe the stewards, feed the stewards and accommodate the stewards. And pay the stewards. They are FIA stewards.

The rear brake ducts have always been a stalking horse. There are many more parts to be protested yet.

Just because Tracing Point have blueprints on their paper, it doesn’t mean they weren’t copied.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Tourer

... The Tracing Point cars have ...

... advantage for Tracing Point ...

Maybe you want to check your keyboard. There seems to be a problem with it, as somehow there appears an extra T when you type an R.

Originally Posted by peebee2

Just because Tracing Point have ...

And you seem to have got one from the same batch ?

[Akrapovic]

Whilst we're here, and it's in my head, can I just point out what a complete cluster this set of regulations is, on every level?

You can copy things, but only if you do it a year before being banned. If you do it later, it's ok. If you do copy things, you get a one time slap and then it's fine, because you can't unlearn it.

The list of things you can and cannot copy is truly bizarre. And then you get into a discussion on customer parts too.

Engines - super important. They make cars go. Defacto listed parts because so few can make them
Tyres - super important. The only part of the car that touches the ground. May not make your own
Brakes - super important. They make the car stop. Customer parts. Buy them in.
Brake ducts - less important. But so ultra super duper serious that you must absolutely never copy them.

Wait what. So you have to buy in your engines, tyres and brakes, but the brake ducts you can't? Are we eventually going to see all the cars running spec, but then Renault are banned for copying the Ferrari drinks bottle or something?

I've got an easy fix for this. Just allow teams to buy and sell anything. It's basically how F1 was for 70 years and makes it more robust.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Whilst we're here, and it's in my head, can I just point out what a complete cluster this set of regulations is, on every level?

It is a mess. The FIA knows it. What will they do about it? Probably just try to patch things up without really looking at the problem. Which is...

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I've got an easy fix for this. Just allow teams to buy and sell anything. It's basically how F1 was for 70 years and makes it more robust.

And I agree as well. As I mentioned a page or so back, this is all due to team trying to work around the inability to have customer cars.

Richard

[wolfhound]

It looks like the compromise result of the Renault protest pleases nobody which usually means its about right (or maybe not).

Now lets get on with the racing and not have to worry about the 2020 championship being decided in 2025 in some court with the only winners being those from the legal profession.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by gert

Maybe you want to check your keyboard. There seems to be a problem with it, as somehow there appears an extra T when you type an R.



And you seem to have got one from the same batch ?

Dammit! Gert, I think that you may be Tright - I seem to have a keyboard that might need Trepair or Treplacement!

[Casper]

If F1 reverted to a drivers championship it would save money as kit cars could be used as they were in the past. All the teams are simply expending many times the effort needed duplicating each others work and no that does not mean it would a spec series at all though why that is a problem no one seems to be able to put into words.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Whilst we're here, and it's in my head, can I just point out what a complete cluster this set of regulations is, on every level?

You can copy things, but only if you do it a year before being banned. If you do it later, it's ok. If you do copy things, you get a one time slap and then it's fine, because you can't unlearn it.

The list of things you can and cannot copy is truly bizarre. And then you get into a discussion on customer parts too.

Engines - super important. They make cars go. Defacto listed parts because so few can make them
Tyres - super important. The only part of the car that touches the ground. May not make your own
Brakes - super important. They make the car stop. Customer parts. Buy them in.
Brake ducts - less important. But so ultra super duper serious that you must absolutely never copy them.

Wait what. So you have to buy in your engines, tyres and brakes, but the brake ducts you can't? Are we eventually going to see all the cars running spec, but then Renault are banned for copying the Ferrari drinks bottle or something?

I've got an easy fix for this. Just allow teams to buy and sell anything. It's basically how F1 was for 70 years and makes it more robust.

Claire 'fiercely independent' Williams, is against customer cars, forgeting that of course SFW started in F1 with a chassis he bought from Brabham.....

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

It looks like the compromise result of the Renault protest pleases nobody which usually means its about right (or maybe not).

Now lets get on with the racing and not have to worry about the 2020 championship being decided in 2025 in some court with the only winners being those from the legal profession.

Looks to me like Ferrari, McLaren et al are going to push for disqualification of RP, they've seen the 'crime' but they don't like the punishment, apparently.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Dammit! Gert, I think that you may be Tright - I seem to have a keyboard that might need Trepair or Treplacement!

Alrigh Ourer don ge your knickers in a wis!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Looks to me like Ferrari, McLaren et al are going to push for disqualification of RP, they've seen the 'crime' but they don't like the punishment, apparently.

This is getting ridiculous. Maybe Ferrari need to focus on their own cars instead of trying to find someone else responsible for their failings. And McLaren are doing well enough to not resort to protests

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

This is getting ridiculous. Maybe Ferrari need to focus on their own cars instead of trying to find someone else responsible for their failings. And McLaren are doing well enough to not resort to protests

Protests are rarely about whether a team is doing well enough or who is failing - more often they're about another team perceived to be breaking rules & the concern that other teams may all then do the same thing.

Quite common for the protesting team to be in reality searching for clarity, because if permitted, whatever the other team did is something that the protesting team may wish to do itself.

In this case, Tracing Point (sorry Gert, we're in lockdown here, can't get a new keyboard) has been found to be running a car that doesn't comply with the regulations at all the Grands Prix where protests were lodged but only penalised for one of those races. That makes absolutely no sense in any way - if the car was outside the regulations enough for the team to be penalised at one race, why not the other races?

Then there's the question of the team being permitted to keep using the same component from here on, given that it has been agreed by the stewards that it is outside the 2020 regulations. Clear as a foggy day in London in the middle of winter. I would expect other teams to appeal or join Ferrari and I'd also expect a flood of protests against Tracing Point at each race until the FIA does a better job of sorting this one out.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Dammit! Gert, I think that you may be Tright - I seem to have a keyboard that might need Trepair or Treplacement!

I have heard a leading outfit buy new stuff all the time. If you give the director a call maybe they could do you a deal on one from the end of last year. Probably quite a bit of life left in it too. At least two years.

Probably cash or some sort of share deal. No invoice anyway. And go to the back door, not the front. And probably best not to say where you got it from, come up with some confusing cock and bull story and hope for the best if questioned later.