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3 Jun 2008, 19:21 (Ref:2219011) | #76 | ||
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3 Jun 2008, 19:48 (Ref:2219033) | #77 | ||
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1. You can slow cars by 5 seconds a lap at Le Mans to stand still, they'd still qualify under 3.30 and race around 3.30+ in '09. Or you can slow them by 10 seconds a lap so the manufactuers have 2-3 years development ahead, without the hassle of reg tinkering, before another major change is needed. 2. The Porsche curves are quick, but the cars are only travelling at 160mph-180mph, a car going sideways should not take off in this day and age. Only recently did we see the rear wing strakes introduced to WRC cars, this ensured cars did not lose downforce when sliding on gravel, so obviously knowledge of aero when a car is side-on is still limited. Is it not possible to introduce roof/body flaps like NASCAR, even some kind under the car. Or reduce the size of the underfloor with tunnels, stepped floors etc. Last edited by JAG; 3 Jun 2008 at 19:50. |
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3 Jun 2008, 19:51 (Ref:2219036) | #78 | ||
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Fair enough. I think I was just following on autopilot following your 180 degree figures.
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3 Jun 2008, 20:17 (Ref:2219075) | #79 | |||
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3 Jun 2008, 21:28 (Ref:2219139) | #80 | ||
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I have to agree Fogel. Also, given that the cars are so far beyond that critical threshold for take-off when approaching 90 degrees of yaw, 5-10 seconds a lap at Le Mans is rather academic, as would be any proposed track changes there or elsewhere (and on that last note, don't screw up any race tracks more than they already have been, fix the cars).
On a somewhat related point. NASCAR machines can and do still lift off, very spectularly sometimes even (as in the case of Michael McDowell). Yes, that was a different root cause, but the risks posed to the driver and others are quite similar, plus the stock cars are much heavier. |
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3 Jun 2008, 23:44 (Ref:2219220) | #81 | ||
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The increase in speeds over the last few years is almost entirely down to increased cornering speeds, acceleration/braking is very similar between a 908 and any P1 from the last 10 years. It's the cornering speeds the ACO fears, and these can be cut by reducing downforce. These days you can visibly see how much quicker the cars are through the bends than in previous years. You have a choice, do you tweak the cars a little each year to bring them back to 2006-7 speeds, or do you make fairly radical changes to give the cars a lttle headroom for development. If the latter it makes sense to totally rethink the aero to reduce the problem of cars getting airbourne (i.e the proposed, more radical, EVO regs), if the former your seriously limited to the changes you can make, unless someone discovers a flap here or tweak there reduces the airbourne problem. Last edited by JAG; 3 Jun 2008 at 23:48. |
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3 Jun 2008, 23:59 (Ref:2219226) | #82 | ||
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Let me ask again JAG; what data/studies are you using, to determine that something needs to be done? Which research that you've read, or which data have you computed on this? Which incidents in particular are solely due to the car and which incidents are due to other conditions, such as surface, elevation changes......?
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4 Jun 2008, 00:29 (Ref:2219232) | #83 | ||
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How about the fact that there has been a (relative) rash this year of cars, regardless if there is any outside influence as an instigator, that have become airbourne in a 90º yaw or pasing through it. And that is a hazard to the drivers, as well as the possibility, if not probability, of an accident where spectators are involved. The question is if there is an amicable/affordable solution that will not totally castrate the cars?
L.P. |
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4 Jun 2008, 00:42 (Ref:2219237) | #84 | ||
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Put it this way, if you point to surface and elevation changes as the reasons for cars getting airbourne, at tracks that have been used for many years, and in the case of Monza by many different formulas, there's something flawed in the design of the cars.
We aren't talking major elevation changes like the old Mulsanne hump, every circuit has similar, minor, elevation changes, which implies LMP's are liable to take off at most tracks around the world! Reducing laptimes and cornering speeds is a side issue to the airbourne problem, but you can deal with both together, either by re working current cars, or designing a new car from scratch. PS, Hughes De Chaunac has said there is an aero problem with the cars when not pointing in the intended direction, while Nick Wurth at Acura has been investigating what happened in the recent incidents, indicating an aero issue (big or small), rather than the cars being a victim of the environment. Quote:
Last edited by JAG; 4 Jun 2008 at 00:50. |
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4 Jun 2008, 01:00 (Ref:2219251) | #85 | ||||
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Most of the incidents have involved cars in the grass, at times the grass has had elevation issues.... It's all the fault of grass... pave the world.. Typical knee jerk reaction when a series of events occur, when previously there wasn't issues. Let the experts determine which events are cause of inherent flaws in LMP's, and we should stick to being fans. |
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4 Jun 2008, 01:16 (Ref:2219256) | #86 | ||
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I don't care for 'green issues' either, but as a fan I take an interest with regards to Le Mans because alternative fuels is an opportunity for this form of racing to prosper and entertain us, while other forms of the sport come under pressure from the green lobby. Pure selfishness to ensure my hobby has a healthy future. Slowing the cars is not my idea, the ACO will do it regardless, they consider current speeds (3.22 qualifying lap) to be at least 5 seconds too quick for what they consider safe. The above will happen regardless, so it's a good time to consider killing two birds with one stone by addressing the airbourne issue as well. If an LMP cannot spin at 150mph+ anywhere but a smooth, paved area, something, maybe relatively simple, needs to be changed on the cars, afterall you don't see these problems with quicker F1 cars, or almost as quick, flat bottom, DTM machines. Last edited by JAG; 4 Jun 2008 at 01:21. |
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4 Jun 2008, 01:24 (Ref:2219258) | #87 | |||
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Ya, knee jerk reactions. Some things do not need a 5yr, 3000pg study to determine there is something wrong. But it might need a little bit of thought on how to minimize it happening without destroying a good thing. And frankly, the all or nothing references, are blasé. L.P. |
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4 Jun 2008, 01:28 (Ref:2219261) | #88 | ||
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The suggestion that this is a new phenomenom is wrong as well. I have a list compiled by Yoshi Suzuka that cites incidents as far back as '66. The list is by no means comprehensive and he has only 20 incidents on it of which only 4 occured within the past 10 years. |
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4 Jun 2008, 02:23 (Ref:2219276) | #89 | ||
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DTM cars run sprint races, and thus are generally not afflicted with many of the mechanical failures we have looked at here. Also, they have significantly less horsepower than LMPs (lower straight-line speed) and weight substantially more (harder to produce enough lift to take off).
Open-wheelers have significantly less undertray area, but the IRL has shown repeatedly that you can get it very wrong with those sort of cars. Given critical take-off speed, I would have to say that the grass, curbing issue is a relative red herring. Also, the Mazda's front bodywork was not firmly in place when it took off at Sebring. Air getting under that bodywork is a likely culprit in that situation, and something that would be nigh impossible to alleviate. I mean, you can design the aero package to do certain things, but if that package in inadvertantly altered at speed (so it doesn't function properly, or at all), what can you really do? After 40-some years of fighting this issue, I suspect that with sportscars any package will have trade-offs. By that I mean that you may be able to get improvement in some areas, but will have to accept sacrifices in others for those gains. Something else occurs to me, MulsanneMike, could the overall aspect ratio of LMP1s be a problem in and of itself? |
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4 Jun 2008, 02:35 (Ref:2219277) | #90 | |||
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4 Jun 2008, 03:08 (Ref:2219284) | #91 | ||
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You'll have to forgive me, but I've only seen highlights from the 2006 and 2007 DTM seasons, courtesy of SPEED (which I only get when I'm off at the university).
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4 Jun 2008, 10:26 (Ref:2219525) | #92 | ||
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4 Jun 2008, 17:27 (Ref:2219809) | #93 | ||
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Your unlikely to stop these incidents altogether, but the latest regs have stopped cars backflipping, I don't think it should be beyond the ACO/manufactuers to make the cars even less sensitive to becoming airbourne. |
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4 Jun 2008, 17:42 (Ref:2219823) | #94 | |
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This is a more general question, but is there an aerodynamic reason why a car might lose it's rotational inertia and get 'stuck' at 90degrees yaw?
Although thinking about this now it could be the driver's foot on the brake that is stopping the car from continually rotating. |
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4 Jun 2008, 22:24 (Ref:2220042) | #95 | ||
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I guess there must be, as it does seem to happen that cars get sideways, and then seem to stay there... Look at Pug 7 video as yet another example?
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5 Jun 2008, 14:56 (Ref:2220565) | #96 | |||
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that 'stuck' at 90degrees was most likely driver error. YES even profressional race drivers mess up once in a while |
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5 Jun 2008, 15:54 (Ref:2220599) | #97 | |||
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11 Jun 2008, 21:54 (Ref:2226396) | #98 | ||
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Lola Mazda just flipped multiple times after spinning. Once the car got sideways at speed it went airborne.
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11 Jun 2008, 21:58 (Ref:2226406) | #99 | |
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The thing is, it wasn't going that quick, and coming into the braking area.
You'd struggle to make a car take off that easily if you designed it specifically! And once again, it takes off, then flys relatively low, not uncontrolled like the old GT1 flips. |
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11 Jun 2008, 21:58 (Ref:2226407) | #100 | |
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How many cars, now, with the same airborne ?
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