Bikes - tell me the truth!

[Beardy359]

After many years of incident marshalling for cars, I decided this year to try bikes. I have just received my passes for the Thruxton Superbikes and realise - I know nothing about marshalling bikes!

What I need is a potted version of all the differences between the way bike and car meetings are run, any information would help prevent me looking more of a prat than normal.

[Stuart Hill]

It's very easy......
after watching bike racing on tv I've come up with a simple guide to marshalling bikes........

1st, Make sure you can be seen, not only by tv but by the bikes aswell!! ie, head one at a chicane!!!

2nd, Under NO circumstances use the available protection, make sure your legs are trackside of the barriers, just like Macleans @ 750 meet!

3rd, The bike is important, the rider knows his risks.


ALL the above comments are from a seasoned car marshal that has decided never to attend any bike meets. I have never, and will never, marshal a bike meet.
Maybe they wear different overalls that are "bike retardent" but I for one will never wear them.

Great racing, on tv, but you won't see me on the bank!!!

[chezza]

I marshalled my first bike meeting last weekend...heres what i found:
1. The sector chiefs (the IO): don't seem to know whats going on.
2. They place much faith in straw bails
3. Run across the track in front of bikes to get to an incident
4. Go for the bike and not the rider first
5. Stand in the middle of the GT with the bike and the rider and have a discussion while the race continues around u.
6. Anybody can flag...even trainees with 3 meetings experience (ie me)
7. Have an infeariority complex...everybody is better than u!

Thats all i can think of for now...have fun.

Don't think i'll be doing another bike meeting.

[Cynic]

I think you forgot the bit about offering to hold the bikes footpegs while the rider does a burnout in the middle of the corner on the slowing down lap.

On the basis of all this, I think I'll send my tickets back.....

[scorch]

I did my one any only bike meeting a few years ago now, and said never agin for all the reasons that chezza gave and more...
Apart from doing track inspections while the practice was going on and smoking while picking up a dropped bike (to me thats a no no for any kind of marshalling bikes or otherwise)

The best bit was when the end of the session came along instead of waiting for the van to pick up the bike one of the guys on post jumped onto it and the others bump started it and he rode it back to the pits.. that sounds like a really good idea 'Don't worry Mr schumacher I will return your Ferrari to the pits for you' :-)

Now don't get me wrong, this is not a comment on the guys that were on post with me they were a great bunch, it was just some of their methods.

[ascarracinguk]

i was watchin a meeting last year at donny and the marshal was standing infront of the cagE!!!!! i was told to never go outside it

[EvilPumpkin]

*takes deep breath and counts to 10*

I've been marshalling bikes in Ireland for 2 years and although I've seen a couple on TV, I have nevercome across the problems you're describing above at an Irish circuit or a road race. Kaybee and Dave would be best placed to comment on the UK.

Beardy, here's some comments which I hope will be helpful.

1. Your own safety first at all times. If you're not comfortable doing something, don't do it (ok nothing new there, but just to cover it off! )

2. The bike is NOT more important than the rider - except possibly in a case where the bike is blocking the track and is likely to cause a more serious accident. In general, crews will determine between them who is responsible for bike and rider in much the same way car crews determine who's on powder/foam/driver/electrics

3. Bike marshals will not always take an extinguisher to an incident (varies depending on event/circuit). The reasoning behind this is that bikes tend to travel further than cars and usually separate themeselves from the rider. Rider takes priority over bike.

4. As you may be aware, there is a higher likelihood of injury with a downed bike rider (although how some of them get away with the spills they take, I will never know). If you get a downed rider, then normal First Aid rules apply - keep them still, keep them calm, call for backup and never try to remove the helmet unless you are trained in c-spine helmet removal and have someone else with similar training with you - and even then I wouldn't do it unless they are in serious distress. C-spine helmet removal training is all well and good - but unless you've been trained whilst kneeling in a gravel trap with 25 600cc bikes going past you, I don't advise it!

If they are trying to get up and can do so, don't try to prevent them - you'll do more damage if you try to stop them getting up and will scare them into the bargain.

5. In the event of a biker punch up in the gravel trap, threatening to use the foam extinguisher on them is a very effective break up method!

I can't comment on the problems experienced by people here who have done bikes except to say, come to Ireland. With the exception of the flagging issue, none of the other things described happen here and you'll have a good time! Good luck with it and I hope you enjoy it!

[Dave Brand]

Firstly, I'm surprised, beardy359, that you are being allowed to marshal at a BSB meeting without having done a 'Racesafe' training day. Make it clear to your sector marshal that you have no experience or training in bike marshalling & (s)he should ensure that you are not asked to do anything you do not feel comfortable with.

Now, down to the nitty-gritty. Your car training will stand you in good stead for bike marshalling. The basics are the same.

You must be prepared for a much higher likelihood of injury in the event of a crash. The rider has priority - if he (non-sexist use of 'he'!) is not moving & apparently injured, use straw bales to protect him & marshals, medics, etc., who may have to attend him on a still live track. Even if the rider gets up & appears to be OK, stay with him - when the adrenalin level drops, the pain kicks in!

The first thing to do when dealing with a crashed bike is to switch off the electrics - the kill switch is usually a red switch on the right-hand handlebar. Shutting off the fuel may also be advisable in many instances. Crashed bikes must be removed to a place of safety - in many instances they will have to be propped up against the tyre wall, in which case bales will be placed in front of them to protect any subsequent crashers from the footpegs, bars etc.

As EP says, the 'bottle to every incident' rule is not normal with bikes - you're not going to get a rider trapped inside a burning bike!

As for running across the track to attend to an incident, yes, bike marshals do it.....so do car marshals. If it is necessary, it should only be done with someone acting as lookout to ensure that there is a safe gap in traffic.

To a 'car' marshal, bike marshalling may appear dangerous; much of that is down to the actions of some individuals & organisations; I'm not going any further than that in public. I do equal numbers of car & bike meetings & do not feel that either places me at any greater risk - I look after my own safety. One thing I will say is that I feel that most bike riders have much more regard for the safety of marshals than many car drivers do - they slow down for waved yellows!

Now for the flagging issue! It is accepted that, for bikes, everybody flags - all bike training days include flagging for everybody. This policy does, I feel, result in a pretty poor standard of flagging. There are differences in the use of flags compared to the way it's done for cars - Kaybee will be able to give chapter & verse on this.

Chezza, don't let your experience last weekend put you off bikes; do a Bemsee/MRO meeting & see how it should be done!

[KayBee]

It is accepted practice that a bike marshal, except for the person in control of that particular post, is supposed to be a jack of all trades and that people also move duties as well as stations when on post.

Craztystu, which bike racing did you watch on television satellite or terrestial (some shown live on satellite)?

As to the flags: the meatball has priority over the black flag, the white flag is never used at club meetings a red is always implemented if a course vehicle is required trackside, further the white flag is used solely for course vehicles and not for slowing vehicles, some clubs do not use the blue flag and also the stationery blue has only just been re-introduced into racing.

[chezza]

Oh yeah i forgot about the burn out thing!!

Also as of yet the only bike training i have recieved is 1 hour on my basic training day about how to lift bikes safely and easily...nothing on flagging or any othe safety at all!!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by chezza
Also as of yet the only bike training i have recieved is 1 hour on my basic training day about how to lift bikes safely and easily...nothing on flagging or any othe safety at all!!

Did you manage to marshal at a BSB meeting without 'Racesafe' membership, or did you get accepted by 'Racesafe' without doing their, or an alternative ACU-approved, bike training day? If so, I'm surprised.

Bike training will usually be at least a full day & should include general safety, incident handling, dealing with injured riders, flagging, etc. A good IO will find out what training & experience his team has & allocate duties accordingly.

[chezza]

I was accepted, as was my father and a few others without any other training apart from that which we had recieved through our car marshalling. And unfortunatley our sector chief (and i'm not getting at anybody here) did not ask us how experienced we were and just allocated duties, and then seemed to get quite annoyed when I refused to flag on the first day.

[ascarracinguk]

someting i forgot to say

im not slagging off bike marshals.. at the end of the day im not one and havent been trained to be one and maybe they do it differently. just remember we are all volenteers and they may be saying the same thing about you!!!

[chezza]

Yeah i have to agree with what u have said there ascar.

I just feel that some of the things i have seen leave a lot to be desired!

[sss]

im afraid i stopped marshalling cars many many years ago for various reasons, and just marshal bikes, i have to say it really does depend on the club you marshal with, some are good some are bad, i do rescue for cars and have seen many things in car marshalling that

I just feel that some of the things i have seen leave a lot to be desired!

dont forget people have good days & bad days, some times good teams on a corners and vice versa and we all make mistakes at times in dealing with things.

but feel free to come down to a bemsee meeting,

by the way, why not do flags after 3 meetings, its not complicated, (although i would have had you supervised)

[sss]

by the way, if you want details of bemsee dates (lydden this weekend) PM me.

[Gizmo]

Interesting stuff you guys, here`s my contribution. The only bike meeting I attended was on a BRDC rescue unit based at inside of Copse. I thoroughly enjoyed the racing and can say that I, even as a bike rider myself, I never imagined that there were that many ways to fall off a bike!!! Now for the downside. Opposite us on the "in" side of copse there were three marshals sat with there legs dangling trackside, facing away from oncoming bikes and reading their programmes. Behind their legs were the tyre marks on the wall from a GT meeting a week earlier. Later, there was an incident where a rider fell heavily in the gravel just opposite us. As the marshals from copse made their way to him/her two other marshals who were looking after that gate behind us, raced past our unit and across the track to the downed rider, no lookout...but I have to say, lookout or not, there ain`t no way you would get me crossing copse at any meeting. Sorry people, not trying to knock people just factual experience.

[Beardy359]

Thanks to all for the replies.

To EP: thanks for the concern about my safety, believe me I am well known for my self-preservation skills! I have some experience of bikes on the hill-climbs and know what you mean about the injuries, in fact my worst hill-climb “casualty” was a bike rider!

To Dave: I volunteered through BARC on their normal volunteer form, it just said “bikes”, I didn’t realise it was it was such a high profile meeting. No mention was made of Racesafe until the passes arrived, and then only to say they were a friendly bunch who will make us welcome, have we broken some (unwritten) rule? (Or have they some foul job lined up for us, the biking equivalent of latrine duty?) The info on kill switches was exactly the kind of thing I was after.

To Kaybee: The flag info was great, are the hand signals – doctor required etc. – the same?

To the rest of you: That which does not kill us only makes us stronger! I have at least got the test day on Friday to find out if I have made a terrible mistake! If it's as bad as you say watch out for the quivering orange blob on the TV coverage, that will be me! Seriously though what is the problem with trying something new – I have already marshalled a rally this year on Bournemouth sea front-"Your area is in front of the first beach huts as far up as Harry Ramsdens!". I have been marshalling now for almost 30 years and still like to try different things, bikes have taken longer to get round to, but if its got an engine lets go!

[Richard Sneader]

I placed my thoughts last yaer on this web site ref bike marshalling from my own experiances from doing a couple of meetings.
It does not really differ from the things being said on the other posts here.
Rich.
Also a point to note although my comments were harsh and hard a few from the bike world have actually come upto me and thanked me for my comments as they believe it needed to be said.

[EvilPumpkin]

Ach I assumed you knew that anyway dear, but the prime directive applies to all marshalling!

The Magnet says that's a goodly stretch (he used to live in Bournemouth) - did you get chips?

[Beardy359]

Unfortunately the Police made them shut up shop just as we were negotiating for a Battered sausage!

[EvilPumpkin]

Aww that sux - and in response to your superb signature, may I just say "stercus, stercus, stercus moriturus sum"

[Beardy359]

Good job the autcensor doesn't know latin, but then gain nor do I really!(Grammar school education - looking up the rude words in the vocab. whilst ignoring the lesson!)

[EvilPumpkin]

LOL - everything I know about rude latin I learned from Terry Pratchett!

[DarrellB]

Beardy
Myself and Teletubby will be driving the med cars (could be busy!!!) for the Thruxton superbikes, come and have a chat if your unsure of anything I'm sure we could probably help.
Bike marshalling is still good fun even if some of the bike marshalling norms seem a bit strange to those who only do cars.

As has been said the golden rule still applies remember your own safety. Just because they feel ok to cross the track doesn't mean that you have to if your not happy with doing so. Be reassured the bikes are very good at obeying the flags and will slow for waved yellows and especially for red flags.