Sensible Post Virus 2021 Sportscar Series

[truebeliever]

Being as we are all under some form of Lockdown wherever we are living, and not all of us are currently going into the workshop. So I thought with time on our hands, this would be a good occasion to give some thought as to what a Sensible Prototype Series could be achieved in a Post Virus world, with the associated enormous revenue loss that will still be felt then.

So most probably by financial necessity, be based around what is currently available in terms of chassis and engine combos, and with regulations in place already, rather a brand new class of cars.

These thoughts should be hypothetical, but your own, and ones which allow for whatever the economy of the time will permit.

Which means, no one from the ACO should post, ''We want Hypercars!''. As I would say that has been relegated into the trash can of history now. Not that I think for one minute, anyone from the ACO, have ever bothered to read the thoughts of the fans on this forum.

[Speed-King]

I think overall field size will be not too much of a problem at least at Le Mans - of necessary, bring in the LMP3s and GT3s.

So the more important question will be what to do about the top class. Personally, I'd allow all comers: grandfathered LMP1s, Hypercars (I think at least Glickenhaus and Toyota will show up) and current-gen DPis.

But it of course all depends on the timeframe we're looking at. If international borders remain closed longer than anticipated, that will also stop any international racing from happening.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think overall field size will be not too much of a problem at least at Le Mans - of necessary, bring in the LMP3s and GT3s.

So the more important question will be what to do about the top class. Personally, I'd allow all comers: grandfathered LMP1s, Hypercars (I think at least Glickenhaus and Toyota will show up) and current-gen DPis.

But it of course all depends on the timeframe we're looking at. If international borders remain closed longer than anticipated, that will also stop any international racing from happening.

Valid and good points.

I'd imagine it will be some of the current teams that would whine on about any grandfathered LMP1 cars tho.

[Speed-King]

An additional thought: I think IMSA/ACO should waive the requirement for OEM-specific bodywork in DPi2.0/LMDH.

[Deleted]

Prediction of what will happen in 2021:
2x Toyota LMH
1-2x Glickenhaus LMH
1x Ginetta LMP1-Neutered
15x Oreca 07, 30% of those sticker-rebranded as something else stupid
1-3x Non-Oreca-07 LMP2
x Random LMP3s solely supplied by Onroak and Norma

Prediction of what will happen in 2022:
2x Toyota LMH
1-2x Glickenhaus LMH
5-10x "LMdH"-LMP2 rebranded OEM cars solely from USA and France
20x Oreca 07, 50% sticker-rebranded as some crap
x Random LMP3s solely supplied by Onroak and Norma

Prediction of what will happen in 2023:
15x "LMdH"-LMP2 rebranded OEM cars solely from USA and France (maybe Germany too with Porsche-Oreca or Audi-Dallara)
20-25x Oreca 07, all sticker-rebranded as some crap
x Random LMP3s solely supplied by Onroak and Norma

Dallara, Oak and Riley will go along with the Oreca 07 cartel without crying as long as they will have base chassis customers in LMdH-thingie, which shouldn't be too much of a problem

What should happen:
Kill LMH
Kill LMdh/DPi
Keep LMP1 (except idiotic success penalties)
Re-Change LMP2 to more open regulations
Keep LMP3 (concept is "fine" for entry level I guess but allow for unlimited chassis constructors)

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Prediction of what will happen in 2021:
2x Toyota LMH
1-2x Glickenhaus LMH
1x Ginetta LMP1-Neutered
15x Oreca 07, 30% of those sticker-rebranded as something else stupid
1-3x Non-Oreca-07 LMP2
x Random LMP3s solely supplied by Onroak and Norma

Prediction of what will happen in 2022:
2x Toyota LMH
1-2x Glickenhaus LMH
5-10x "LMdH"-LMP2 rebranded OEM cars solely from USA and France
20x Oreca 07, 50% sticker-rebranded as some crap
x Random LMP3s solely supplied by Onroak and Norma

Prediction of what will happen in 2023:
15x "LMdH"-LMP2 rebranded OEM cars solely from USA and France (maybe Germany too with Porsche-Oreca or Audi-Dallara)
20-25x Oreca 07, all sticker-rebranded as some crap
x Random LMP3s solely supplied by Onroak and Norma

Dallara, Oak and Riley will go along with the Oreca 07 cartel without crying as long as they will have base chassis customers in LMdH-thingie, which shouldn't be too much of a problem

What should happen:
Kill LMH
Kill LMdh/DPi
Keep LMP1 (except idiotic success penalties)
Re-Change LMP2 to more open regulations
Keep LMP3 (concept is "fine" for entry level I guess but allow for unlimited chassis constructors)

Likewise, some good thoughts.

I think a little optimistic on the numbers though. As there is going to be a fairly large economic recession/depression following on the heels of this virus.

That raises the question of, who will pay for all this new racing? Even the rich people will be losing big time on their investments, and after having laid off many of their workforce, can a company be viewed as being ethically responsible, if they are seen to be spending money on motor sports?

I think we will need to be very open minded about what we would like to see, and what is possible.

I do agree that perhaps some type of open top class can work, with a variety of different cars, but that would be a bit of a nightmare trying to balance things! I do not believe there is any future of a new class for Hypercars, likewise, the timing will likely prove wrong in trying to establish LMDh also, on both sides of the Atlantic.

There is going to be probably a quite large contraction within motor sports for some years to come, caused by both economics and the governmental control over crowds of people, fear of the virus breaking out again, not to mention travel restrictions.

Life as we knew it before this, will not be returning over night, neither will racing.

Keep the thoughts coming in

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Likewise, some good thoughts.

I think a little optimistic on the numbers though. As there is going to be a fairly large economic recession/depression following on the heels of this virus.

That raises the question of, who will pay for all this new racing? Even the rich people will be losing big time on their investments, and after having laid off many of their workforce, can a company be viewed as being ethically responsible, if they are seen to be spending money on motor sports?

I think we will need to be very open minded about what we would like to see, and what is possible.

I do agree that perhaps some type of open top class can work, with a variety of different cars, but that would be a bit of a nightmare trying to balance things! I do not believe there is any future of a new class for Hypercars, likewise, the timing will likely prove wrong in trying to establish LMDh also, on both sides of the Atlantic.

There is going to be probably a quite large contraction within motor sports for some years to come, caused by both economics and the governmental control over crowds of people, fear of the virus breaking out again, not to mention travel restrictions.

Life as we knew it before this, will not be returning over night, neither will racing.

Keep the thoughts coming in

Those were the numbers I expect for Le Mans, for 2021 WEC maybe five Oreca 07s to follow the 3-4 LMHs, and for ELMS max of 8-10 Oreca 07s. The rest of the grid will be filled with GTE-AM Ferraris and Porsches, or in the case of regionals, LMP3. There must be over hundred LMP3 cars and teams out there in the world, even if 75% of them are killed off by the financial meltdown, the numbers should still suffice to "fill the grid". It will be the new mix of LMPC and GTC in one. Also, to increase the attractiveness of LMP3, I suspect extra Le Mans LMP2 invites will also be added to the class, and/or Michelin Le Mans Cup is shut down to fuel ELMS entry list

As for the question of who is funding it, I feel there is one easy answer they've already invented, and that is sticker rebadging. By offering discount sponsorship deals for boutique car manufacturers, such as I don't know Venturi, or perhaps even larger ones, the (Oreca 07) teams will get part of the funding that way. ACO is already encouraging that direction anyway

The LMdH thing should sadly survive as in the core it's very cheap and they don't need to invent the wheel for 2022. The spec hybrid system won't be dependent on teams either. Moderate amount of OEM marketing cash from GM and some others will keep it going after Toyota has bailed out after winning 2020 (LMP1), 2021 and likely 2022

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

An additional thought: I think IMSA/ACO should waive the requirement for OEM-specific bodywork in DPi2.0/LMDH.

In this scenario are you saying OEM's could provide engines but use stock body panels from a chassis manufacturer? That sounds entirely reasonable and possible a way to get new car manufacturers into the fray.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by joeb

In this scenario are you saying OEM's could provide engines but use stock body panels from a chassis manufacturer? That sounds entirely reasonable and possible a way to get new car manufacturers into the fray.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yeah, there were more changes than the claims that have been made on here. A LOT more changes so you might want to point to other cars for that minimal change claim. This one is tired and frankly shows you're uninformed.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

No:

[chernaudi]

I'd argue that HPD were even lazier when it came to the ARX-05 (Oreca 07). All they did was change the headlights and added that flap that runs between the fenders/wheel wells.

Yeah, the front bodywork on the Nissan/Ligier was pretty cheap and simple, but more changes got made to the sidepods and engine cover (even if only minor in and of themselves on an individual basis) to accomodate the Nissan engine.

Aside from changes to the engine cover to accommodate the Acura/Honda engine, HPD's DPI upgrade to the Oreca is pretty milquetoast IMO.

And as much as I'd like to see DPI 2.0, LMDH and even LMP2 to a degree get opened up, I highly doubt it'll happen. The economy in the world, which already wasn't great, is taking a big hit with the stagnation of the shutdowns, teams and even constructors (or the racing arms of OEMs and/or their marketing departments) will or likely will plead poverty, and many people's purse strings will tighten, either because of economic hardship or fears of them. That also includes sanctioning bodies.

I don't 100% like LMDH and DPI 2.0 as currently envisioned, but in the realm or road racing, we might be stuck with how IMSA and the ACO envision it for a while.

[BrentJackson]

Everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING, will depend on how the United States handles the coronavirus, and frankly, so far they've done a truly awful job of it. As people say, the economic losses that will invariably result from the damage done worldwide isn't a wrench thrown into the mix, I think it's more like a shotgun to the chest.

In the aftermath of COVID-19 mess - which is gonna last all of 2020 unless the Americans get their crap together, and quickly - the appetite for manufacturers to engage in motorsport, and their financial resources for doing so, will be massively, massively diminished, as the political (and consumer) demand for ever-more-advanced road cars will not be diminished, and creating them will take up and ever-larger slice of the companies' budgets. And since the various sports car series are pretty much completely reliant on this (as are a lot of touring car series), they need to shift gears and make their series more about fans in the stands, watching on TV and streaming online so that other sponsors can see enough return on investment to justify spending in what will be a very uncertain world.

For the ACO, it means scrapping both Hypercar (which will almost certainly not get off the ground aside from maybe Toyota, and they won't be a certainty now) and LMDH and moving to DPi 1.0 + open-platform LMP2. Dump the four-chassis rule as fast as possible and let all comers chase it, as Ginetta certainly will and others very likely will. GTE-Am has to go as well, and GT3 should be invited to take part into the event, with pure-factory efforts made to race in GTE-Pro. LMP3 should be the backup plan if there isn't a big enough grid, though this is most unlikely if you ask me. There simply isn't a need, nor is it wise, to push for an entirely new prototype category, particularly when it requires the use of a hybrid system, which is additional complexity and cost which is entirely inappropriate at this point in time.

The WEC I'm seeing as a 50/50 whether it lives on or not. As people say, it's extremely difficult to say how well international racing will move on. IMSA will almost certainly live on, though I expect that the prototype rules will at best remain on DPi 1.0, if not move back before then and re-allow the previous LMP2s and perhaps even the original souped-up DPs and the DeltaWing, and IMSA will definitely, definitely have to open up the rules for it GT categories and merge LMP2 back into the prototype category, even if it means they get blasted by the DPis on a regular basis. IMSA was down to mid-30s regulars at its marquee races, when realistically in this new world if they are going to get (and keep) fan interest, they need to start showing up with +/- 40-42 at most tracks and 55-60 for the big events to get the fans showing up for the action. A revival of AGT and Trans-Am style cars? Older GT3s? LMP3s?

For the ACO, the Oreca monopoly on the LMP2 category is Okay right now, but it's a fan problem waiting to happen and will certainly see the likes of Ginetta, Dallara and Multimatic abandon the sport, which the ACO DOES NOT need, which means they need to one way or another break Oreca's stranglehold, and using the existing technical rules. Not sure how they do that, but they will need to make it happen. The 24 Hours of Le Mans and the ELMS can handle a loss of fans assuming many of its old teams show up, but if that doesn't happen then the GT3s will probably get brought in to help fill out the field.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by joeb

In this scenario are you saying OEM's could provide engines but use stock body panels from a chassis manufacturer? That sounds entirely reasonable and possible a way to get new car manufacturers into the fray.

I'd do that now, personally, and encourage LMP2 to be made an open-chassis formula in order to allow newcomers to enter there for both DPi and LMP2 purposes (Looking at you Ginetta and Norma) and allow DPi to use any engine a team wants to use in it, make LMP2 strictly for Gibson-engined cars.

[Gingers4Justice]

I propose we go for the early 90s method. Let's call it WSC 2.0.

Just like how many cars, such as the Courage C36, TWR Porsche and the Kremer K8 were Group C cars with the roof looped off and the bottoms sanded down, I think we should do the same again with early 2010s prototypes. We're going to remove the power trains and get rid of their roofs. Stock block engines too.

TWR represented their former adversaries and turned a Jag into a Porsche. So we need something similar again. I'm imagining TMG acquiring a 2014 Audi R18 chassis and sticking the engine from the new Supra in it.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I propose we go for the early 90s method. Let's call it WSC 2.0.

Just like how many cars, such as the Courage C36, TWR Porsche and the Kremer K8 were Group C cars with the roof looped off and the bottoms sanded down, I think we should do the same again with early 2010s prototypes. We're going to remove the power trains and get rid of their roofs. Stock block engines too.

TWR represented their former adversaries and turned a Jag into a Porsche. So we need something similar again. I'm imagining TMG acquiring a 2014 Audi R18 chassis and sticking the engine from the new Supra in it.

My sarcasm-detector might be broken, but: How does that help with anything? Modern prototypes, especially those built by factories are designed from the ground up as one integrated system. By chopping off roofs and switching out engines, all one will achieve is to mess up their aero and weight-balance.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Just like how many cars, such as the Courage C36, TWR Porsche and the Kremer K8 were Group C cars with the roof looped off and the bottoms sanded down, I think we should do the same again with early 2010s prototypes. We're going to remove the power trains and get rid of their roofs. Stock block engines too.

It's about 100x harder to take the roof off the modern integral carbon rollover structure cars than the old steel roll cage on a tub Group C chassis.

DPi having any kind of future is pretty highly optimistic. The only manufacturer that even seems likely that they might stay in that category is Mazda. LMP2 is basically the max for prototypes. Even that might need LMP3 to prop it up, and GT3 has finally found the event that will make all of the growing costs and other problems no longer background concerns that can be swept under the rug, so you might even need to move GT4 up a tier to fill grids.

As is there aren't a ton of cost effective engines that can replace a Gibson in an LMP2 chassis without completely obliterating the cost effectiveness of the car as a whole. They were never designed to be that flexible.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It's about 100x harder to take the roof off the modern integral carbon rollover structure cars than the old steel roll cage on a tub Group C chassis.

DPi having any kind of future is pretty highly optimistic. The only manufacturer that even seems likely that they might stay in that category is Mazda. LMP2 is basically the max for prototypes. Even that might need LMP3 to prop it up, and GT3 has finally found the event that will make all of the growing costs and other problems no longer background concerns that can be swept under the rug, so you might even need to move GT4 up a tier to fill grids.

As is there aren't a ton of cost effective engines that can replace a Gibson in an LMP2 chassis without completely obliterating the cost effectiveness of the car as a whole. They were never designed to be that flexible.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

My sarcasm-detector might be broken, but: How does that help with anything? Modern prototypes, especially those built by factories are designed from the ground up as one integrated system. By chopping off roofs and switching out engines, all one will achieve is to mess up their aero and weight-balance.

You're both being called into pitlane at the end of this lap, you're going behind the wall to have your sarcasm detector looked at.

[Dyson Mazda]

Honestly they should just run Le Mans in 2021 as a 2 Class GT race (GTE & GT3-AM) and figure out what the prototype picture stands after all of the dust settles for 2022. This would bring a ton of manufactures (and their sponsorship $) to the race with great driver lineups. They should also scrap the WEC for a year (focus on the ELMS & AsLMS) and relaunch it in 2022. I don’t think Aston Martin survives the crash (their stock price is down to like 30 cents) this but you could probably lure Ford & BMW back.

[joeb]

Jaime Klein on Motorsport.com has a solution for how the series should proceed in the future. It sounds reasonable, but he is just describing the ILMC. Not that that is a bad thing, and it would definitely make Chiana happy

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-mans/4787978/

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by joeb

Jaime Klein on Motorsport.com has a solution for how the series should proceed in the future. It sounds reasonable, but he is just describing the ILMC. Not that that is a bad thing, and it would definitely make Chiana happy

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-mans/4787978/

This is a well written article about the future of Sports Prototype and GT racing.

However, I still feel it does NOT take fully into account, the coming economic recession, and the effect this is going to have on ANY future motorsports!!

Who is going to pay for the ''full fields'' at Le Mans/Daytona, etc? Will there be a glut of commercial sponsors willing to fund this racing? Will there be a glut of personal wealth people willing to fund this racing?

We wait and see, but I think not to both those scenarios.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

This is a well written article about the future of Sports Prototype and GT racing.

However, I still feel it does NOT take fully into account, the coming economic recession, and the effect this is going to have on ANY future motorsports!!

Who is going to pay for the ''full fields'' at Le Mans/Daytona, etc? Will there be a glut of commercial sponsors willing to fund this racing? Will there be a glut of personal wealth people willing to fund this racing?

We wait and see, but I think not to both those scenarios.

Yeah he basically left out the fact that both sponsors and rich guys are about to lose massive amounts of money. I still this a GTE/GT3 bridge until the next round of LMP’s is the right play short term.

[carbsmith]

Where would these GTE cars come from? GT3 grids are going to be gutted too.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Honestly they should just run Le Mans in 2021 as a 2 Class GT race (GTE & GT3-AM) and figure out what the prototype picture stands after all of the dust settles for 2022. This would bring a ton of manufactures (and their sponsorship $) to the race with great driver lineups. They should also scrap the WEC for a year (focus on the ELMS & AsLMS) and relaunch it in 2022. I don’t think Aston Martin survives the crash (their stock price is down to like 30 cents) this but you could probably lure Ford & BMW back.

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Yeah he basically left out the fact that both sponsors and rich guys are about to lose massive amounts of money. I still this a GTE/GT3 bridge until the next round of LMP’s is the right play short term.

Scrap the LMPs now and you'll never get them back, trust me. It's much more expensive to run LMP2s than GT3s at a place like Le Mans, and nobody is gonna justify a sudden and sizable increase in costs. And in the aftermath of the coronavirus justifying any major motorsport expenditures, particularly a multi-million-dollar program centered around one very big race and two fair-sized but expensive series, isn't gonna be easy.

If you went that route, all you'd get for the next decade is the same GT cars.

Originally Posted by joeb

Jaime Klein on Motorsport.com has a solution for how the series should proceed in the future. It sounds reasonable, but he is just describing the ILMC. Not that that is a bad thing, and it would definitely make Chiana happy

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-mans/4787978/

A truly stupid idea whose entire premise is gonna be based on teams being willing to do Trans-Atlantic trips for the series. Yeah, good luck justifying that.

If anything, they should be going in the opposite direction, entirely scrapping the WEC and directing everyone into the ELMS instead, letting IMSA do their own thing and keeping the AsLMS going only if it can draw a grid big enough to survive, which to be honest I highly, highly doubt.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

A truly stupid idea whose entire premise is gonna be based on teams being willing to do Trans-Atlantic trips for the series. Yeah, good luck justifying that.

If anything, they should be going in the opposite direction, entirely scrapping the WEC and directing everyone into the ELMS instead, letting IMSA do their own thing and keeping the AsLMS going only if it can draw a grid big enough to survive, which to be honest I highly, highly doubt.

Two good paragraphs that describe the future, in common sense terms.

Which means neither the ACO or now also, IMSA, will do it!