Marshalling techniques when numbers are low

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi folks,

A question has been raised within my own club and I thought I'd throw it out to the floor here.

It's felt there are too many instances of SC and session stop for comparatively small incidents - cars in a head on position etc.

Does anyone have any recommended methods for shifting a car out of the gravel trap when you only have 1, maybe 2, available course marshals?

[brickkicker]

Callthe meeting off or get some of the drivers family out there to help out. Otherwise for saftey you have to stop it or use the s/c there is not much else to do

[serverbrainfailure]

snatch it?

[theracegypsy]

Control or stop, no other safe way, probably find 2 bods isn't enough even with no cars circulating

[wickedwitch]

Get the driver to give a hand - they can be useful like that when they're not seriously injured.

[BFC]

thats right u marshalls over there pretend u r horses and try to pull cars out of gravel IDIOTS we over here use motorised vehicles to do that we even do it sometimes without using s/c

[Cynic]

Unfortunately, we only get snatch vehicles at some circuits. And even then it's sometimes quicker to try and move the vehicle by hand thna wait for the tow to arrive! As to the originasl question, if the car is in a bad position, a s/c or safety car is the only safe solution. I did a meeting at Donington where three drivers were reprimanded for swapping paint while they were passing the gravel trap where the snatch tractor was retreiving a car.

[Cynic]

Must learn how to type properly....

Meant to say a s/c or red flag is the only safe solution.

[EvilPumpkin]

BFC - as Cynic has pointed out, snatch vehicles are not always available. Thank you for your kind sentiments though - it's nice to know what high regard you hold us in.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
BFC - as Cynic has pointed out, snatch vehicles are not always available. Thank you for your kind sentiments though - it's nice to know what high regard you hold us in.

Hey Pumpkin, please don't take the rantings of one Aussie to heart - he can't even spell BCF which as we all know was banned long ago as bad for the Ozone Layer!!! The unkind words coming out of this fella's mouth are also bad for the atmoshere(here!!)

WRT to pushing out bogged vehicles with marshals - I don't like to see it happening (they are too soft on the inside when something made of tin runs into them!!). Just a point about snatch straps, they were not used by our Army because they can part and take somebody's head off (this doesn't stop their almost universal use however). My suggestion is if you think you are going to be short of people why not contact the local 4WD club and suggest that some of them might want to come out and play!! (I suppose you have a licencing scheme over there covering recovery types??) Cheers

[EvilPumpkin]

LOL - it was directed at BFC directly 275 - not Oz in general

I see your point, but there are a lot of factors involved in driving in live race traffic. The vehicles are sort of available, but there's also the issue of driving them safely and getting to an incident promptly. I agree about snatch straps - it's in our training to stay clear of them before they get to full tension.

The use of snatch vehicles is one that's under a great deal of debate at the moment - a snatch vehicle driver is just as soft and squishy as a marshal - and they can't attach the straps unless they get out of the truck. Obviously, you try to park in a stand off position, but at the end of the day, those large bits of tin have a mind of their own and you can only provide minimum protection for yourself in any case.

Then of course there is the famous radio message "Post (whatever) to control - can you send Tow 2 down here please"

"Control to Post whatever - is Tow 1 not already there with you?"

"Confirm that Control We need Tow 2 to pull Tow 1 out of the gravel trap. It's stuck"

This actually happened I've seen it happen with an ambulance as well!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
Does anyone have any recommended methods for shifting a car out of the gravel trap when you only have 1, maybe 2, available course marshals?

Yes.....repeat after me: 'That car's going nowhere!'

It's very unlikely one or two people will be able to move car once it's in the gravel, although there are always exceptions. However, I think the number of marshals available is something of an irrelevance. If it's necessary to move a car, then by implication it's in a dangerous position, which means that to move it marshals must work in a dangerous position. If the incident happens early in the race, before the field gets spread out, it may be possible, with enough people available, to move the car under waved yellows, but in most cases the safety car/battenburg flag will be needed to create discrete gaps in the traffic.

The bottom line on this is that it doesn't matter whether you've got two or twenty marshals available, if the job can't be done safely (1), it can't be done at all. If that means using the safety car or red flagging the session, so be it......you're not going to improve the marshal shortage by breaking the few you've got!

(1) Not an absolute - more a case of minimising risk to an acceptable level.

[BFC]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Hey Pumpkin, please don't take the rantings of one Aussie to heart - he can't even spell BCF which as we all know was banned long ago as bad for the Ozone Layer!!! The unkind words coming out of this fella's mouth are also bad for the atmoshere(here!!)

WRT to pushing out bogged vehicles with marshals - I don't like to see it happening (they are too soft on the inside when something made of tin runs into them!!). Just a point about snatch straps, they were not used by our Army because they can part and take somebody's head off (this doesn't stop their almost universal use however). My suggestion is if you think you are going to be short of people why not contact the local 4WD club and suggest that some of them might want to come out and play!! (I suppose you have a licencing scheme over there covering recovery types??) Cheers

fortunatly i can spell BFCstands for beaut fabulous citizen big fat clown big fat **** anything u want to choose anyway iwas just stirring about recovering under s/c

[BFC]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
LOL - it was directed at BFC directly 275 - not Oz in general

I see your point, but there are a lot of factors involved in driving in live race traffic. The vehicles are sort of available, but there's also the issue of driving them safely and getting to an incident promptly. I agree about snatch straps - it's in our training to stay clear of them before they get to full tension.

The use of snatch vehicles is one that's under a great deal of debate at the moment - a snatch vehicle driver is just as soft and squishy as a marshal - and they can't attach the straps unless they get out of the truck. Obviously, you try to park in a stand off position, but at the end of the day, those large bits of tin have a mind of their own and you can only provide minimum protection for yourself in any case.

Then of course there is the famous radio message "Post (whatever) to control - can you send Tow 2 down here please"

"Control to Post whatever - is Tow 1 not already there with you?"

"Confirm that Control We need Tow 2 to pull Tow 1 out of the gravel trap. It's stuck"

This actually happened I've seen it happen with an ambulance as well!

ok EP point taken im just stirring. over here we use long ropes hemp type 1" thick mainly for gravel traps meaning tow vehicle always stays on black stuff btw we use 4wds also use garden blowers to clean wheels/spoilers so stones dont get on track as car is being pulled out

[scorch]

I think that snatching has become quite wide spread that there should an MSA grade for it..

I consider it a lot like flagging. from the outside it look easy, just wave a flag or just drive a vechile. but when you actually are under race conditions it is a hell of a lot harder than it looks.

Well thats my excuse for all my mistakes...

[Stoowert]

Snatching is all very well if:
1)You have somewhere to put the snatched car,
2)You have enogh bodies to do it safely.
Just watch the best snatch team in the world, the Simple Green Safety team in CART. For a start, there is 6 of 'em. All have a specific job to do and they get to work together and practise together many times a season. They are not one bloke in a 1948 Land Rover!
If in doubt - Stop it! If you're wrong, say sorry to everyone afterwards. It would be of little comfort saying sorry at a Coroner's Inquest...

[serverbrainfailure]

best snatch unit i've ever seem is at croft - they use one of those agricultural forklifts to pick the begger up and get it out of the way quick - I've never understood why donnington is allowed to let rusty tractors wander around in the gravel traps for 10 laps - and yes - I have seen that...!

[EvilPumpkin]

Somewhere to put it is another one - I hadn't thought of that, but it's a very valid point!

[Piglet]

Circuits have to be licensed to snatch don't they?

[scorch]

I don't think there is any official MSA guidance on snatching. Different circuits do it different ways.

But by far the best snatch vechicle is the JCB forklift type of vechicle, as seen at the GP. Tractors are ok but like 4x4 vechicles they can only drag cars, the JCB can lift as well as drag. so if you have a formula ford with only 1 wheel then it is just picked up and moved.

[brickkicker]

Yes circuits have to be licensed to have snatch they have to have things like CCTV to even be able to think about it.

Hey Pumpkin, please don't take the rantings of one Aussie to heart - he can't even spell BCF which as we all know was banned long ago as bad for the Ozone Layer!!! The unkind words coming out of this fella's mouth are also bad for the atmoshere

BCF are still used and allowed in cars over here and if you wonder up silverstone pit lane you will see loads of them.

[Richard Sneader]

I believe that to have snatch at circuits the licence has to be passed by the MSA and there has to be cameras in place for all snatch areas( I may be wrong on this), A place for the snatch vehicle to come on and to go off without crossing the track if being done under yellows only) At Brands we put out the battenberg as the paddock snatch has to cross the track.
Terri on your point if the conditions are right and the car is not miles into the gravel trap and pointing the correct way etc etc, then if safety and time permitt and the car is rear wheel driven get the driver to put on low revs. The couple of marshals at the back can then lift up from the bottom of the car and push forward at the same time, this takes a bit of pressure of the rear wheels alowing them to start to turn, as the rear wheels start to grip get the driver to put on more revs. and keep pushing up and forward. It can be done and this is how we used to do it in the old days. The same technique was used when we had that sports 2000 in at Druids during the FF Fest. Admitadly with a few more bods, but I have done this with me and one other.
I stress the safety must be correct and is for saloons or sports cars only. It does not realy work on single seaters.
Its a method I have used a few times and if done properly no one is in danger. It is down to experiance and knowing if the car is rear wheel driven and working with the driver as a team.
With only 1 marshal there is not alot you can do.
Hope this helps.
Rich S.

[EvilPumpkin]

Thanks Richard - I'm familiar with the technique but I don't believe I've ever tried it myself at Mondello. It's not quite as applicable to Mondello as the gravel we use is different and the traps themselves tend to be deep and...hungry is the best word I can use! It's also a problem in wet conditions as the end result would more than likely be getting pelted with mud and rocks - but in dry conditions and with the circumstances as you describe - and with a driver you can trust - I think it could be applied.

Just a note, as far as I am aware, and I could be wrong - I don't believe the MSA has any jurisdiction in the Republic of Ireland with regard to licensing of circuits. Mondello is a FIA circuit and they obviously have to comply with their regs, but I don't think the MSA has anything to do with it. If anyone knows different, please let me know.

[rick vaux]

Hello EP long time no speak or see....
I have always thought that a cable fixed to a point behind the armco, with enough rope attached, can be quickly pulled out to a stranded car, ( no, comon, stop laughing please )
hooked up to stranded car, and then simply winched back electricaly , towards armco, where, upon arrival, can be unhooked , driver fined by marshal, who will keep the money.
Sounds abit too easy though on feflection, shall go back to drawing board me thinks.....

[wickedwitch]

Actually, I think you'll find that the FIA (the supreme authority) recognises an authority in each affiliated country and this national authority (or ASN) in Ireland is MSI while in the UK it is MSA.

Of course each ASN has a certain level of autonomy and so MSI may run things differently to MSA, but in the end they are both answerable to FIA.

Regarding Richards suggestion, yes I've seen that done but with more marshals than EP is suggesting. If we're talking about maybe two marshals lifting the rear of a saloon here, well, is that really feasible?