Safety issues

[LYNX]

As I understand it, regulations for historic racing are either:-
a) seat belts and roll hoop or b) neither

There are diagrams in the blue book as to the height of the hoop in relation to the helmet - so why do drivers persist in driving cars with their head level with or even above the protection?

If the car flips and buries itself into gravel - death or serious head/neck/spine injury is highly likely. However, I have not heard of an instance where the srutineers have picked up on this point. Surely safety is as big an issue as is cheating! Or is it not 'macho'?

[flagwaver]

Like a lot of things it is not that simple. A lot of Historic cars where built in an era when the height of the roll hoop was not regulated. With a lot of cars you can not just weld a higher hoop on. Seatbelts are simular. No good putting belts onto a chasis that was not designed for them.

[LYNX]

Yes I understand the point that some cars cannot have seat belts hence a) or b) but it is when they are fitted incorrectly I have problems with the concept. It gives a false sense of security.

[GBRM]

I personally wouldn't race without a rollcage/hoop, even if it spoiled the car, but the I'm 29 and have grown up with "safe" cars!!

It has always amazed me that certain manufactures decided to cut out weight from their cars be down-sizing the rollcage, ridiculous in my opinion, but then some preparation companies used the rollcage to hide certain bits (no, I so want to post on the TWR SD1 thread again!!),

Actually, I'm going to backtrack a bit, if someone offered me a drive in a DBR4 Aston Martin or BRM 16 then I would take it but I'm not sure if I'd want to race them; I'd be happy on the track but I think the people now that own and race these cars are too competitive and don't realise what the downside is; someone will get killed or seriously hurt if you hit them/knock them off.

[GORDON STREETER]

Heaven forbid if someone is killed and some insurance company has to pay out an enormous sum, something will probably get done as regards roll cages. Seat belts are another matter in historics, as most of the guys prefer to get thrown out( raving mad) They weren't compulsory even in saloon car racing in the early 60s and at first most only fitted lap and diagonal ones. I cant remember when belts were fitted std in road cars in the UK but I can remember fitting them as an extra on new ones on the pre delivery checks. I believe Volvo were the first major car manufacturer to fit them in 1959.

[GBRM]

As much as my Dad was a racer and would drive anything I think the safety thing was always on the back of his mind, not on all all circuits, but jurt as a general observation; can you imagine what he would have been like in an F5000? Okay Baby Bertha was as quick but if Dad got in a F5000 then why not a F1 car?

It was always noticeable that him and Tony L would use the old cicuit coming out of Paddock down the hill at Brands but they were both the only people to say "remove the tyres and sand trap there and replace the armco with a big metal spike, that will show the men from the boys!!".

Safety is a huge thing, as I found out at Thruxton this weekend, I had a huge spin at Church and thought that was me about to roll, it reminded me of John Wingfield being killed there and Pete Kitchening almost losing his foot, but that's 30+ years ago. Lets make sure circuits are safer; I personally feel Thruxton is one of the few that hasn't changed and to me that's great, when I watch in-car footage of Dad I know I'm doing the same (only a bit slower though!!).

[terence]

2yrs ago a very good friend rolled his HRG at Copse,no rollprotection or belts,he was trapped in the upturned car and dragged along the tarmac causing terrible damage to both hands,broken shoulder and very bad bruising,to say he was lucky would be an understatement!.I think that with the improved grip the circuits offer these days,Roll hoops should be mandatory,I know they look unsightly but------

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I know they look unsightly but------

They certainly do, but they are made worse by the fact that they are usually kept in chassis colour; black or grey. They'd be less visually obtrusive and blend in better, if they were painted the same colour as the body; at least certainly for the darker coloured cars. And whilst I understand why the hoops have to be higher than the top of the helmet, I've seen a couple this year where the hoops seem to stick above by 10 inches or so; seems a bit OTT, literally!

[simon drabble]

you need to be able to have a piece of string run uniterrupted from teh top of the hoop to the front of the car - I know it can be unsightly (and on some US cars a bit OTT) but I would not drive a car without belts and hoop. Its not just the flipping aspect but the whiplash on a head on or tail on shunt

[zefarelly]

I've seen some pretty woeful cage prep on tin tops ( less so in the last 2 years or so ) and cages that quite frankly may as well be plastic drain pipe

likewise belts and seats mounted on foil thin floor pans, bolts with no washers etc, scary, I'll happily add a few Kg to a car to make sure what I bolt in stays exactly where it is!

[LYNX]

Gordon - seat belts were made compulsory for front seat driver & Passengers in February 1983, though I think there was initially some retrospect date of first used exemptions as well as certain vehicles.

One reason I started this post was that when my husband was racing in period 1961 or 1962 a fellow driver flipped his car (Spridget) at Brands, Martin went to help and picked up the helmet complete with head! There have been several rolls in single seaters in recent years at meetings I've attended but in each case no serious injury was suffered - each one had an acceptable belts and roll -over hoop.

[275 GTB-4]

Motor Racing is Dangerous....what part of Dangerous do people not understand??

On the weekend I saw a very bad crash, helmet well below the roll bar, well belted in...but still multiple injuries....I'm not trying to be clever....but really, maybe some people should go and grow flowers if they can't bear to see people injured in what is an inherently risky business.

[caveat: I do not and never will wish to see people injured racing, but, if you think it ain't ever gunna happen then you are a fool]

[LYNX]

Not disputing motor sport is dangerous, however it does not have to be reckless!

[simon drabble]

275 GTB-4 I dont know if you race or not but whilst of course you are right it is all about trying to eliminate unneccessary risks. This involves spannering the car properly before the race, wearing the right protective kit and finallly (in my mind) wearing belts and having a rollbar.
If I race 10/10ths with belts and a rolbar against 8/10s without I am making a better spectacle for the spectator so everyone should be happy.

[JimW]

For a (comprehensive) trip round these issues, see:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58635

or perhaps:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88574

Regards

Jim

[GBRM]

As Lynx said, I think we all agree and acknowledge motor racing is dangerous but it's those around us that are reckless that the main concern is about at the moment.

You only need to look at the top levels of racing we get in the UK to see how reckless drivers have become and when these "star" drivers come into our "historic world" and race in the same vein then the problems begin.

Also, we are racing these historic cars quicker then they went in their day and sometimes it is just too quick for them.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Also, we are racing these historic cars quicker then they went in their day and sometimes it is just too quick for them.

Possibly in some cases but don't forget that the circuits are massively safer than they used to be.

Regards

Jim

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by JimW

Possibly in some cases but don't forget that the circuits are massively safer than they used to be.

Regards

Jim

Agreed, some are safer but some aren't and we still use old tyres!! I don't think Goodwood, Thruxton and to a degree Brands and Snetterton haven't changed much at all. At least we don't use blooming silly catch fencing anymore!!

[JimW]

But tyres are (generally) an exceptionally good thing. Even one layer (and head on spots are usually more) especially with belting, are really effective. I'm talking about days when straw bales (if you were lucky) was as good as it got.

Then think Recticell and gravel traps.

Catch fencing was good except for the risk of being hit (driver or marshal!) by a pole - I've seen both - not good. Almost all circuits have had the walls moved back, sometimes a loooong way. Think how Brands/Paddock used to be.

Think how the chicane at Thruxton was three layer Armco, not a 4 inch kerb.

Lots more examples if you are old enough to remember them.

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

I'm sure the Dunlop Formula R's we use Gregor are a bit better than the ones in period, I used to use them on my road car (Healy 3000) and they were as hard as hell! (or reading Jims post was you talking about tyre barriers??)

I can give you a nice example here of idiotic UK car preparation and I don't know who owned the car before but he should have been shot for doing this. Its not just his neck what happens when he sells it or lets someone else drive it (I would never be a magazine car tester for any amount of money). On the IROC project I am renovating it has or more correctly has been fabricated around a Banjo Matthews NASCAR Stockcar tubular chassis. All the floor sections in fact every thing bar the roof and rear quarters are fabricated from thinner than stock sheet. The tubular chassis is a work of art with every major component hanging off it, all the suspension, engine mounts, gearbox mounts and very cleverly the seat and belt mounts. Now along comes our UK man and at one stage must have decided to put in a cheapo Cobreau seat. So what does he do, make up a stout subframe and bolt that to the integeral chassis seat mount, Oh No far to simple, he bolts the bloody thing to the thin metal floor one good yank and the bolts would just pull straight though like they had started to and to cap it all he also bolts the crutch strap to same lightweight floor not to the existing mount already designed in by the Penske engineers. Doughnut!

PS Lynx your discription of the Brands accident made me shudder :-(

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by JimW

But tyres are (generally) an exceptionally good thing. Even one layer (and head on spots are usually more) especially with belting, are really effective. I'm talking about days when straw bales (if you were lucky) was as good as it got.

Then think Recticell and gravel traps.

Catch fencing was good except for the risk of being hit (driver or marshal!) by a pole - I've seen both - not good. Almost all circuits have had the walls moved back, sometimes a loooong way. Think how Brands/Paddock used to be.

Think how the chicane at Thruxton was three layer Armco, not a 4 inch kerb.

Lots more examples if you are old enough to remember them.

Regards

Jim

Tyres are good, just strange that nothing else has ever been designed, some sort of foam or something.

Are gravel traps that safe though? Probably, but when you look at somewhere like Paul Ricard it is amazing but then if you make a mistake you can keep going, whereas with gravel you'll be lucky!!

I agree certain corners here and there are a bit safer but I don't think by much but then I'm not that old!!

It was interesting, a few months ago I watched a Supersaloon race from 1975 at Oulton Park and I never realised there was banking all the way round and it actually saved someone from had a big off, as he ran along the side of the bank and carried on, if he did it now he'd end up in the barriers!!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Now along comes our UK man and at one stage must have decided to put in a cheapo Cobreau seat. So what does he do, make up a stout subframe and bolt that to the integeral chassis seat mount, Oh No far to simple, he bolts the bloody thing to the thin metal floor one good yank and the bolts would just pull straight though like they had started to and to cap it all he also bolts the crutch strap to same lightweight floor not to the existing mount already designed in by the Penske engineers. Doughnut!(

(Slightly off topic but still safety related to older cars.) The design of seats and, I think more important, the requirements for fitting them and the belts, has improved radically. There was a time 30 or so years ago when we would attend saloon incidents and find the driver had been rattling around in his otherwise undistorted cockpit because the seat had come loose or failed or the belt mountings had pulled out of the tin to which they had been pop-riveted. (I kid you not.)

Regards

Jim

[graeme]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Tyres are good, just strange that nothing else has ever been designed, some sort of foam or something.:

Reticel! Amazing stuff - I've seen Caterham go headlong into it at Mallory (Esses) and Cadwell (old Hall Bends), and just bounce then drive away. We should have more of it.

Originally Posted by GBRM

Are gravel traps that safe though? Probably, but when you look at somewhere like Paul Ricard it is amazing but then if you make a mistake you can keep going, whereas with gravel you'll be lucky!!

I hate tarmac runoff with vengance! Copse at Silverstone used to be a ballsey corner, but with tarmac its easy. And Pouhon (sp?) at Spa used to be great - but really dull now. Trouble is it prevents red flags, which is a good thing. But I don't know the answer - a stop/go on tarmac runoff if you use it - there has to be some penalty to going off!

Originally Posted by GBRM

I agree certain corners here and there are a bit safer but I don't think by much but then I'm not that old!!

It was interesting, a few months ago I watched a Supersaloon race from 1975 at Oulton Park and I never realised there was banking all the way round and it actually saved someone from had a big off, as he ran along the side of the bank and carried on, if he did it now he'd end up in the barriers!!

In our race at Lydden a few months ago, someone put their car up the banking on the inside of Devils Elbow. Out of the race but no damage!

[Dan Friel]

[QUOTE=graeme]I hate tarmac runoff with vengance![QUOTE]

Whilst marshalling at Goodwood a couple of weeks ago (at Woodcote corner), we had a weekend debate about it. Over the weekend we came to the conclusion that the tarmac had the nod. The observer was also requested to report any car that over ran into the run off more than once - so hopefully that should cover the "possible advantge" issue..

Goodwood - am I right in thinking that every big accident this year involved a car with belts and a roll bar?? A fortunate co-incidence, or are people with safety gear braver??

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by graeme

I hate tarmac runoff with vengance! Copse at Silverstone used to be a ballsey corner, but with tarmac its easy. And Pouhon (sp?) at Spa used to be great - but really dull now. Trouble is it prevents red flags, which is a good thing.

Whats in common with both those circuits? They're designed for the safety of F1 cars, that's what. Us mere mortals aren't at their speeds so don't find the challenge!