Toyota: KERS is primitive!

[Marbot]

Toyota are not too happy with forthcoming energy recovery system.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65226

[Knowlesy]

This is obviously something Forghieri kers about deeply.

I wish they'd not talk about F1 cars helping develop road car technology though. The idea of that being the case is beyond stupid. When have F1 cars been relevant to road cars?

I agree with his comments on variety in the cars though. The FIA should look to be a bit more open ended with things, be it KERS or, well, everything.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

This is obviously something Forghieri kers about deeply.

Oh dear

I don't really see the point of KERS (or is that kerring) at all.It's already in use with road cars,and if it's something that's going to be restricted in use in F1,then why bother with it at all?!

[safc_fan89]

It will be like everything in F1. The top teams will find a bigger advantage with it. But it's a bit daft if it is going to be restricted. Too much is restricted. That is the one concern I have over any aero rules which will supposedly improve the racing. If you can't change aero in a few years, what on earth can you change?

[Gt_R]

Shouldn't Toyota be pleased? For once, they are ahead of others.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I wish they'd not talk about F1 cars helping develop road car technology though. The idea of that being the case is beyond stupid. When have F1 cars been relevant to road cars?

I agree - I don't see huge similarities between F1 cars and the car sitting in my driveway. Four wheels and an engine, perhaps.

I think with how sensitive people are about the environment at the moment, it's not surprising that F1 wants to "do its bit". But they should do it properly or not at all - this sounds like a pretty half-hearted effort if it's going to be less effective than any similar systems.

[Maccafan]

Things like this really annoy me. We have some of the best technical minds in the world trying to push the boundries of engineering and car design and the FIA stamp on them as soon as they try to do anything different.

In my opinion the FIA is holding back the safety and development of our road cars which would surely benefit from the ideas that these brilliant people come up with.

[Pingguest]

I totally agree with Mauro Forghieri. Formula 1 is any no way a technical showcase any more. Name a revolutionary innovation of the last five years that haven't been banned.

[Born Racer]

I agree that F1 shouldn't have to be a showcase for potential road car technology. People watch F1 to see highly-stressed machines operating at a short-term intensity (about an hour and a half). If it does happen to lead to a potential innovation for road cars, great, and it has done in the past.

Perhaps the road-related idea is to help appease hardcore environmentalists, by allowing for it to be claimed that it is putting something back into "real life" rather than being simply a sport.

[Bononi]

Actually I don`t know why peope watch it anymore. Maybe if Bernie rebrand it as some sort of reality show, people would get interested again...

[Born Racer]

Viewers could vote off their worst drivers at the end of the year.

Actually, that wouldn't be any more farcical than the concept of 'success ballast' which exists in other series.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Formula 1 is any no way a technical showcase any more. Name a revolutionary innovation of the last five years that haven't been banned.

QuickShift/seamless-shifting gearboxes have been introduced lately. The previous semi-auto progresses made their way to road cars. Some aero tricks like chimney air outlets, multiple-curve rear wings and rear view mirrors mounted on pillars in aerodynamically-optimal places are starting to appear on other race cars where the rules allow modifications.

The way it's going now, Formula will be as good for road cars as all the other spec-series that exist, even if it's the fanciest one you can find... The innovation and the freedom to experiment and be different these days is in sportscars.

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I agree - I don't see huge similarities between F1 cars and the car sitting in my driveway. Four wheels and an engine, perhaps.

The steering wheel? Wait, yours doesn't cost $40,000...

[Smokey 6 litre]

That man is talking pure sense, Max please listen to him!!!

[FPV GTHO]

With comments like those, Toyota better hope theyre winning races in 2009 if they feel theyve already got a better system than will be allowed.

[Smokey 6 litre]

If Toyota trully does have an advantage in this area is think they want to exploit it as much as they can, i dont see the point of the FIA speeding up the 'development' of these systems if there are more advanced and better system already in existance.

[Marbot]

"Toyota trully"....hmmmm...this is worrying.

F1 has never been very good at 'firsts'.It always appears somewhere else and then ten years later F1 adopts it has 'cutting edge' technology.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I wish they'd not talk about F1 cars helping develop road car technology though. The idea of that being the case is beyond stupid. When have F1 cars been relevant to road cars?

Times have changed.

Social pressures, not to mention asking manufactuers to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on technology, that has zero benefit to their core business, is going to come back and hit F1 hard.

F1 needs someone in charge who has a vision, someone who is passionate about cars and technology, not were the next cash windfall is coming from.

Is F1 a technological showcase, or a glorified reality show?

[Gt_R]

Quote: "F1 needs someone in charge who has a vision, someone who is passionate about cars and technology, not were the next cash windfall is coming from."

We may not be fans of Bernie or the FIA, but MAYBE Bernie has the vision that we don't?

We presume we know what's good for the sports, how F1 should be this or that, should remain a Europe-centric sports, etc etc.

Bernie/FIA may not see it the same way. For example, if in their eyes, F1 is meant to be a huge marketing platform. FIA doesn't need F1 to be the leader in KERS technology, that simply just having KERS in F1 is good enough for Toyota/Honda who can then brag about some similarities between their road and F1 cars, and sell millions of their products to customers who don't know any better. And FIA would achieve their goal of using F1 to promote the supposed "green technology", to change perception of the normal consumers and to make them take up green cars.

If F1 can speed up and advance technology relevant to road cars, its a bonus. But its quite enough when the name F1 can make the general public to jump ino a Toyota Prius. Like it or not, there are a huge group of people who are just happy enough to be in some way have a car that has "F1 technology" in it, from a global point of view. Nascar may work in US, Lemans may work in other areas, but F1 has a much broader impact.

To Bernie, spreading his toy set around the world makes F1 is to ensure F1 remains attractive to big end sponsors. Those who constantly criticise F1's move to the middle east, to china, to US are missing the point.

Looking at Nascar. A recent interview, a commentator said something about how the point of Nascar is really not about the car, about advancement. It's just an entertainment show to create excitement. And the cars are merely a side show and a tool to achieve that point.

Maybe Bernie is shifting F1 to a marketing platform, maybe to entertainment, maybe not to any. Who knows? Even EPL is thinking of stepping out to a "global" scale... you can hardly call Bernie somebody who has no vision. Max.... well, that may be a different story.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

With comments like those, Toyota better hope theyre winning races in 2009 if they feel theyve already got a better system than will be allowed.

That won't be the case, as every team will have to use a sort of "semi-spec" system.

[Oldtony]

Lets face it, the future of F1 is to be an Entertainment series, as JAG says a giant reality TV show. Bernie has us headed down the path where the Celbrity dummy spits and tantrums of the egos contending for the WDC are far more important to the financial return for those involved than is any of the technology.
KERS is a classic example of a concept which could have helped F1 show some degree of technical leadership. It has been strangled at birth by a set of restrictive regulations which demote it to greenwash status.
Keep the WDC for Bernie and F1, but let's have a real World Manufacturers Championship for those who want to use racing as a research, development and demonstration tool.
I guess LMP endurance racing is the closest thing to that position. Technically inovative and the multiple drivers for enduro racing keeps the egos of the drivers in perspective.
Are we headed back to the days when Le Mans was more important than the whole F1 season?????

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Are we headed back to the days when Le Mans was more important than the whole F1 season?????

hmmm...let me see...Lemans series...V8s,V10s,flat sixes etc and diesels,hybrids,bio-fuel.F1 is err a regulated to death V8 in a chassis and bodywork that's difficult to differentiate from any other F1 car of recent manufacture.

But it's difficult to imagine what sort of cars we would be watching if all the technologies were allowed and were unrestricted.

Given that F1 cars normally crash on bends,how much of that technology (ABS,TC,ESC,Active suspension,tyre development) can be used to increase cornering speeds given the consequences of what might happen should the 'technology' fail?

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by JAG

Times have changed.

Social pressures, not to mention asking manufactuers to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on technology, that has zero benefit to their core business, is going to come back and hit F1 hard.

F1 needs someone in charge who has a vision, someone who is passionate about cars and technology, not were the next cash windfall is coming from.

Is F1 a technological showcase, or a glorified reality show?

I thought motorracing is supposed to supply just that, "racing".

Therefore I would think that someone who had "racing" at the core of their interest would be best?

I watch F1 to be entertained, to hope to see a good race between drivers, not to watch how many tenths quicker the new front wing from X team will provide.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

hmmm...let me see...Lemans series...V8s,V10s,flat sixes etc and diesels,hybrids,bio-fuel.F1 is err a regulated to death V8 in a chassis and bodywork that's difficult to differentiate from any other F1 car of recent manufacture.

But it's difficult to imagine what sort of cars we would be watching if all the technologies were allowed and were unrestricted.

Given that F1 cars normally crash on bends,how much of that technology (ABS,TC,ESC,Active suspension,tyre development) can be used to increase cornering speeds given the consequences of what might happen should the 'technology' fail?

Nobody is proposing the (re-)legalislation of these driver aids. But Formula 1 anno 2008 doesn't not have any big technical challenges. Engine development is outlawed, the tyres and electronics are national...uhm, I mean standardised and only evolutionary changes are possible on the part of the aerodynamics.

Formula 1 was found as the ultimate drivers' championship. But that doesn't mean that any technical development should be outlawed.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

But Formula 1 anno 2008 doesn't not have any big technical challenges. Engine development is outlawed, the tyres and electronics are national...uhm, I mean standardised and only evolutionary changes are possible on the part of the aerodynamics.

Formula 1 was found as the ultimate drivers' championship. .

So let it be for the drivers championship, and for entertainment only.
Drop the terms "Constructors" or "Manufacturers" from any F1 Championship.
Save the Manufacturers money for a real WORLD MANUFACTURERS CHAMPIONSHIP that allowed much more technical development and less focus on the "Celebrity Ego" thing that now dominates F1.