Tech Issue Will Melbourne be ruined by diffusers?

F3L · 16 Mar 2009, 17:40 (Ref:2416830)

Whilst some teams are up in arms about the perceived discrepancy, the FIA has already declared Toyota and Williams' designs legal and not in contravention of the regulations, with president Max Mosley underlining: “The current FIA view is that Williams and Toyota have been clever and found a loophole in the rules. It's probably wrong, but they've exploited the wording of the rules in a clever way.
“Somebody may challenge it and then the stewards could take another view. The view of our technical people is that it's okay; we'll wait and see if someone challenges it.”
+
Now Brawn have a similar problem. I can see Flavio challenging the diffusers through the Stewards if any of the above three teams finish in front of the Renault.

Lets hope not so the Championship has a strong beginning to 09.

ChrisPage · 16 Mar 2009, 18:58 (Ref:2416866)

The thing I can't understand is why the FIA can't just make a bl00dy decision and have it stick - if their technical people say they are legal, that should be the end of it. It shouldn't then be up for a scrutineer at the race to go against that and disqualify them.

It would be pathetic given the excitment and build up to what should be a great year if 6 cars get disqualifyed when the governing body themselves have deemed the car legal.

I can understand if new things come up during the race weekend disqualifying a car, but it's pathetic a yes or no can't be given until the whim of whichever random official in Melbourne makes the final call.

craigd · 16 Mar 2009, 19:34 (Ref:2416898)

Agreed. They should be left as legal if it's already been brought up and found to be ok. And especially, with the lack of testing now, it would be extremely unfair to about-turn on this once the season is underway. It's not as if Williams and Toyota (and now Brawn) kept this underwraps, only to release it on the sly just before the start of the season and hoping it would stick.

As I say, with the lack of testing, if those 3 teams were screwed over in Melbourne, or shortly after, they just wouldn't have the testing time to rework a new solution relative to the other teams. Even if these diffusers are slightly against the spirit of the new, overtaking friendly rules, I hope they stay - after all Brawn et al should be rewarded for coming up with ingenious solutions that the big boys have failed to notice, and this, in an ironic way, is also kinda what the new rules were intended to do!!!

ivanalesi · 16 Mar 2009, 20:19 (Ref:2416934)

They should have decided by now, it's already too late for some teams. If it's illegal, then they will have to run new diffuser. If not, then the other teams should run new diffusers and winter testing is almost over!

**Adam43** · 16 Mar 2009, 20:38 (Ref:2416944)

It will if you let it.

JeremySmith · 16 Mar 2009, 23:40 (Ref:2417061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

It will if you let it.

Far too subtle..

JeremySmith · 17 Mar 2009, 09:49 (Ref:2417234)

Go ahead let's see how sensible the discussion is..

Glen · 17 Mar 2009, 10:24 (Ref:2417252)

Well it might not reach the giddy heights of sensibility achieved in the F1 Lunch thread, but since it has barely even started I can't see how you so confidently predicted a breakdown in order and decency.

As for the original topic, I do think the rather bizarre way in which scrutineering works in F1 does mean that there is potential for farce. Especially given that the current fastest car has an innovative diffuser design - if Brawn keep one of the top teams out of Q3 for example then there is almost certainly going to be an appeal, which will certainly spoil the season opener.

fourWheelDrift · 17 Mar 2009, 10:26 (Ref:2417253)

This issue opens an interesting debate about whether compliance with the rules is about the spirit or the letter of the law.

For what it's worth my view is that the spirit of the law is an idea which has a place in the sporting regulations and the on track action but as for the technical regulations it is only about the letter of the law.

If a team finds a way to circumvent the spirit of the law in their car design I say good on them, that's what they are paid for, it is now up to the other teams to catch up.

Of course you could argue that the rules are poor becuase they contain this loophole but changing them once the cars are built is not acceptable, if they need fixing they should be fixed for next year.

I do agree with other posters that if the FIA say they have evaluated it and that it is legal this should be a binding precedent the stewards have to follow at each race.

Incidentally are Renault developing a habit of failing to spot loopholes in the technical regs and then moaning about the other teams who have done a better job, first failing to exploit the engine reliability upgrade opportunity and now the difuser whinge.

ECW Dan Selby · 17 Mar 2009, 11:05 (Ref:2417279)

Yeh I must say I am getting a little sick of Flav's moans.. For goodness sake, if you can't beat them, join them. Get the aerodynamacists to do their job and research these new methods and to develop their own version! It's not rocket science (Well it's close, I guess

)

Selby

crmalcolm · 17 Mar 2009, 11:34 (Ref:2417289)

A query to those in the know. Are the scrutineers employed to enforce the rules of the local circuit, or the rules of the FIA?

Super Hans · 17 Mar 2009, 12:21 (Ref:2417305)

I'd hate for it to lead to disqualifications as that genuinely would ruin the Grand Prix, for me at least. If it keeps causing a hoo-har, I can see the FIA issuing a clarification after the first few races, with the teams involved agreeing to scrap the offending diffusers.

Glen · 17 Mar 2009, 12:35 (Ref:2417319)

It would be less worrying if the situation was unprecedented - but there have been several similar situations which did the sport no good at all - like the McLaren third pedal for example, which was approved legal but later banned.

As for Flav "moaning" - I think that is a rubbish assessment, frankly. They have just suffered a spell of poor relative engine performance because they stuck to the spirit of the regs when other teams forged ahead and pushed the boundaries - Flav quite correctly points out that this situation is in the same category.

Lotusonpole · 17 Mar 2009, 12:42 (Ref:2417320)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I'd hate for it to lead to disqualifications as that genuinely would ruin the Grand Prix, for me at least. If it keeps causing a hoo-har, I can see the FIA issuing a clarification after the first few races, with the teams involved agreeing to scrap the offending diffusers.

Surely even FIA cannot deem the said diffusers illegal after confirming their legality. If it does come to it I think Super Hans' suggestion is the most sensible. But I still ask why if they have already been passed?

I hope their legality is upheld if they are challenged.

BootsOntheSide · 17 Mar 2009, 12:58 (Ref:2417330)

It's a bad situation when local stewards can overrule decisions made by the FIA themselves. If three teams have made the same 'interpretation' of a rule, the fairest option would be to give them until the start of the European season to make an adjustment, but let the cars race as designed for now.

shiny side up! · 17 Mar 2009, 23:46 (Ref:2417888)

I was a Scrutineer for the last 2 USGPs, and at each race whenever a Scrutineer thought they might have some sort of infraction to report, there would be detailed conversations with Jo Bauer and his FIA Tech Delegates. In circumstances where a Scrutineer finds an infraction, the penalty (or non-penalty, as it may be) is completely in the hands of the FIA.

Now, I am not sure how an official protest would change this picture... but I cannot imagine it being any other way. The FIA Technical Delegates are indeed technical experts - they are all ex-team engineers or from other racing disciplines / suppliers - and the Scrutineer's job is simply to help them police the goings-on in every team garage simultaneously. This doesn't seem to jive with what we have all witnessed on Sporting Regulation infractions, though - many times last year it was clear that the Scrutineers made the call on whether or not something was legal and what the penalty might be.

Ultimately, I suppose there would only be any action around the diffusers if there were indeed a protest lodged since the FIA Tech Delegates have already said they deem the designs legal. I think the drama resulting from the protest will likely not be led by the local Scrutineering team - they will get their direction from Bauer and his crew, and unless the protest brings new information to light that the FIA hasn't already seen, it will be found unwarranted and the cars will remain legal.

Glen · 18 Mar 2009, 12:59 (Ref:2418239)

Bernie has joined this "crazy" discussion (Autosport):

"Ecclestone believes that good results for Brawn GP early on, however, will not rest easy with rival teams - as he fears a potential protest about the legality of the diffuser on the BGP 001 being lodged at the season opener in Australia."

ECW Dan Selby · 18 Mar 2009, 13:36 (Ref:2418257)

LOL The bit that made me laugh was his ending comment about how the racing will be "un-affected" but it will be discussed after the race... So tell me, how does that mean the racing will be "un-affected"? Surely it's quite the opposite. How can we enjoy the racing if we know full well there'll be a protest after, probably seeing the win overturned? It's crazy! I just think the teams without this double decker diffuser need to put up and shut up (I know many will disagree), and the FIA need to do their bit and flat out decide how legal it is. It's not fair on anyone.

Selby

F3L · 19 Mar 2009, 10:49 (Ref:2419150)

Quote " The threat of formal protests lodged by the teams' rivals in Australia thus remains. "I guarantee whoever wins the races in Melbourne will be told they are cheating, and it doesn't matter who it is," Bernie Ecclestone commented on Wednesday 18th March Unquote.

All these clever boys cannot even put a show on that allows the fan to watch and understand the result as .......what is the result. Joke.

RotorFan · 20 Mar 2009, 01:00 (Ref:2419886)

They wouldn't disqualify the cars. If the technology doesn't contradict the rules, they have not cheated. Ferrari's flexible floor is an example. They'd just be asked to modify the cars after clarifying the rules.

For me, finding loopholes in the rules is an exciting part of motorsport! Its about finding innovative avenues to get the best possible performance!

brands · 21 Mar 2009, 09:50 (Ref:2420809)

It looks like this issue will be decided in a 'court' long after Australia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...t-subside.html

Marbot · 21 Mar 2009, 10:44 (Ref:2420835)

Unfortunately this is the sort of **** that happens when you don't standardise parts that should be made standard.

sizzle · 21 Mar 2009, 10:56 (Ref:2420840)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Unfortunately this is the sort of **** that happens when you don't standardise parts that should be made standard.

Martin I would have said it was more the FIA not coming out and stating they are legal or not when the **** first hit the fan.

This almost looks like Max is looking forward to the controversy!

littleman · 21 Mar 2009, 11:49 (Ref:2420886)

The controversial diffusers are legal - period. The problem's arisen simply because the rule governing them hasn't been written properly or at least in a way that the FIA actually intended.

The only fair way out of this mess is to re-write the rule and make it effective from a certain date.The FIA can't penalise Brawn,Williams & Toyota for a cock-up of their own making!

Flav and the other teams have missed a trick, so now it's up to the FIA to correct their mistake which should probably apply from 2010 onwards.The "disadvantaged" teams will simply have to play catch-up in 2009 because they weren't sharp enough in the first place!

Marbot · 21 Mar 2009, 14:12 (Ref:2420972)

Hopefully something can be done to defuse the situation........

I'll get me coat...again.

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