[Rules] A Suggestion for the safety car period.

[Tathrim]

It's all very well for the safety car procession to be out, but it doesn't reward the time won and lost during the race as it goes normally, which seems a little unfair. It also reduces the entertainamnt for fans when it finishes under the safety car. Here is my, admittedly off the wall, attempts to remedy this.

Amendment 1.

When a safety car situation occurs, The cars line up behind the first saftey car (explained further below) and, once lapped cars are released, follow the safety car in to the pits.

These cars would get released in order at the time intervals that were registered at the call for the safety car. However, another set of time intervals registered are noted down as if every car was on the lead lap, to release the lapped cars in the same place as well. These cars would still register on the main system as being a lap or 2 laps down.

This means if if Car A pulled out a 4 second lead over Car B two laps prevously, Car B would be released 4 secs after Car A, restoring the balance roughly. In addition to this, if Car B is 4 seconds ahead of Car A, but Car C is x laps plus 2 seconds behind A, the order released would be Car A, then Car C, then Car B.

Amendment 2 - Laps under SC don't count towards laps if more than 2 laps, and only the first completed lap counts towards the timesheets.

A little complicated, and feel free to ask on claricication, but I hope I've explained it.

What do you guys think? Is it too messy?

[Adam43]

I like what you are trying to do here.
However it is messy, although not impossible, and loses a chance to make it more exciting. It is fair, but F1 doesn't do fair.

[Dutton]

Ad2 works for me in terms of the general idea, but I would alter it (call it Ad2b). If we must have increasing numbers of increasingly lengthy SC periods, then let it minimise the shortening effect on green running. I'd say do it so that the first 3 laps count and are timed like they be would now, but not after that. Everyone must make their stop(s) in that time if they want to stop. If you go into the pits after this during the SC period, then you serve a drive-through penalty 2 laps after the green has dropped. The timing aspect is simple enough if you make the illegal stop: you are put to the back of line, and you are last.

I would like Ad3 created. I'd like to see a thing whereby if there was some incident, say, within 5 laps of the end (or whatever number is agreed on), which would clearly mean a SC until the end of the race (or at least a signficant probability), that the race is either red-flagged and called or red-flagged then restarted to complete the laps. I don't care either way, so long as following the SC to the end of the race is avoided. Following the SC to the end has always struck me as a total waste of time and energy.

As for your fandangled plan? I can see where you are coming from with it, and it is an interesting idea, but do we really want to entrust the FIA with regulating something that complicated? It is asking for a global crisis of splattered brains and smashed TVs (or pawn shops would be logistically crushed).

I'd settle for going back to the way things were before they introduced the new-generation of SC regs, but with Ad2b and Ad3 included.

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I would like Ad3 created. I'd like to see a thing whereby if there was some incident, say, within 5 laps of the end (or 10, or 8 - whatever number is agreed on), which would clearly mean a SC until the end of the race(or at least a signficant probability), that the race is either red-flagged and called or red-flagged then restarted to complete the laps.

I can see where you're coming from here Dutton, but the problem is that quite often the Safety Car needs to be scrambled before the crews on the ground are able to determine how many laps it would take to clear up an incident. Assume a car is stranded in a dangerous position 5 laps from the end of the race. If the marshals aren't able to attend the scene in live race traffic to determine whether they require a suspended-lift (collapsed suspension, seized brakes, etc), or whether it will easily push to an escape road, the Safety Car MUST be deployed. Once this has happened, in this scenario they might be able to clear the circuit within a lap or two, or the race might finish behind the Safety Car.

Having said that, it was blindingly obvious (to me anyway) that Kubica's car could not be easily recovered in Melbourne after his accident, so I think they should have just thrown the red there. Going back to your proposed Ad3, I think red-flagged and called would always be the preferable option, otherwise you run the risk of drivers who are just outside the points attempting ridiculous - and more importantly dangerous - "do-or-die" manoeuvres when the field is bunched up at the re-start.

[Dutton]

Sure, send it out initially until it can be ascertained whether it will be going to the end or not. But if after 2-laps, say, it becomes clear it is going to run to the end then just stop the race. Melbourne is a perfect example of when it was clear we would following the SC to the end, which is just a completely pointless exercise.

[bestfit]

When a safety car situation occurs, The cars line up behind the first saftey car (explained further below) and, once lapped cars are released, follow the safety car in to the pits.

These cars would get released in order at the time intervals that were registered at the call for the safety car. However, another set of time intervals registered are noted down as if every car was on the lead lap, to release the lapped cars in the same place as well. These cars would still register on the main system as being a lap or 2 laps down.

I don't see how the cars can be released from pit lane under timed conditions. The only point the cars can be released from is the pit exit line, and if the entire field is a conga line down pit straight each car must first get to the exit line before it can be released. Depending on how small the gap is between the cars and if there are lapped cars in the way, it may be physically impossible for a car to get to the exit line before it is due for release and so that car will lose time. A concertina effect could see many of the following cars also lose time.

[RichardRenes]

Simply make it a rule that it will allways be code red as soon as we are in the last 5 laps of a race, and something occurs that requires the safetycar to be deployed.

Also, here in the Netherlands, we have an endurance series called Winter Endurance Championship, and during those races, no safetycar is deployed ever, but they apply a 'code 60' rule.

The code 60 flag is purple, with a white st. Andrews' cross in it.

During code 60:
no car can overtake
every car is required to continue driving at a maximum speed of 60 km/h (checked against sector times and lap times).

that way, the circuit is safe enough for work to get done, but gaps simply remain gaps because all cars are running at the same speed.

[Dutton]

I've often pondered a situation with limits like that running it. I could never decide it would actually work in reality.

It seems like it does.

[Marbot]

I seem to remember suggesting something similar to Tathrim's idea a while ago,but as Adam said back then,it is too complicated and confusing,and extremely difficult to grasp,particularly if you aren't watching it on telly.

[duke_toaster]

Amendment 1 : Too complex for most people, also there would be a need for major timing changes. It would also take too long.
Amendment 2 : It could make the races longer, but could work. I would suggest that three laps would be the maximum amount wound off, but the two hour clock should continue to run.

Code 60s have the problem that the cars are not bunched up for the marshals to recover bits of debris, however slow they are moving you need a gap in the cars to start picking bits up.

I don't see any real issue with the current system, really.

[fourWheelDrift]

On my local indoor Kart track if there is an incident someone in race control pushes a button and all the Karts slow down, works every time

[Matt]

That's a stupid idea. Why release them on time intervals. Just line them up nose to tail, and have at it.

[Dutton]

Or just make them line-up on the grid for a standing start at the end of each SC period.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Safety Cars aren't fair - welcome to racing. Is it fair when someone drives into the back of you and spins you out? Should you just be allowed to restart with a new car, in the position you were before? Is it fair when you have a mechanical failure? Is it fair if you are unlucky enough to hit an animal? Or how about a puncture?

The list of scenarios which are unfair in motorsports is endless. It is part of the sport. Safety cars don't need fixed.

[Matt]

That would be good to watch.

With the OP's rules, we wouldn't even have the opportunity for PROPER restarts, like this one(I know it was caused my a problem on Mika's car, but it was still the best restart in F1, imo.):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1XCHgNAcxM

[rustyinsthoz]

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

Safety Cars aren't fair - welcome to racing. Is it fair when someone drives into the back of you and spins you out? Should you just be allowed to restart with a new car, in the position you were before? Is it fair when you have a mechanical failure? Is it fair if you are unlucky enough to hit an animal? Or how about a puncture?

The list of scenarios which are unfair in motorsports is endless. It is part of the sport. Safety cars don't need fixed.

My thoughts exactly.

[BootsOntheSide]

Excessive use of the safety car is one of the worst things in modern-day motorsport. The sport can never be 100% fair, but why artificially create another injustice? Only a handful of SC incidents would have required a red flag, and most of the others could reasonably be cleared using double-waved yellows.

Adding laps back on is a great idea - the BTCC already adds laps back to the race distance for each SC lap (up to a maximum of five). My preferred system would be to only count half or 2/3 of the laps under SC, as we know roughly how much fuel is used in those conditions.

[Armco Bender]

Why does it take so long to remove a broken down car?.I'm sure they could employ a gang of local car thieves to pull the car down in under 2 minutes and be off with it.Then the safety car would only need to be out for one lap.
Unless the car thieves have stripped it down while its waiting in the pit lane...

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Why does it take so long to remove a broken down car?.I'm sure they could employ a gang of local car thieves to pull the car down in under 2 minutes and be off with it.Then the safety car would only need to be out for one lap.
Unless the car thieves have stripped it down while its waiting in the pit lane...

Perhaps we could hold a GP in Liverpool.

Sorry couldn't resist.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Code 60s have the problem that the cars are not bunched up for the marshals to recover bits of debris, however slow they are moving you need a gap in the cars to start picking bits up.

I disagree. The Dutch and Belgian marshalls supported the 'Code 60' as cars are always slowing down.

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

Safety Cars aren't fair - welcome to racing. Is it fair when someone drives into the back of you and spins you out? Should you just be allowed to restart with a new car, in the position you were before? Is it fair when you have a mechanical failure? Is it fair if you are unlucky enough to hit an animal? Or how about a puncture?

The list of scenarios which are unfair in motorsports is endless. It is part of the sport. Safety cars don't need fixed.

I'm sorry, but your comparison is wrong. There's a fundamental difference between unfairness due to conditions and unfairness due to the rules.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Safety car is part of the racing conditions. Everybody knows the rules, and some even plan for it (Ferrari, Melbourne).

[Adam43]

That means you can have whatever rules you like for the SC, as long as everyone knows them.
So if there is a better way of doing it then lets do it.

[Sodemo]

Remember Bernie walking up the grid in Oz some 20 years ago telling the drivers "get in your car, the race is starting", I think he needs to start that same walk again...

[Tathrim]

Fair enough, good suggestions, I was merely trying to provoke a discussion here, and I see that there are better measures. I do like the idea of the Code 60.