[Driver] Will Badoer Disaster Deter Loeb?

[Super Hans]

I wonder whether Sebastian Loeb will be having second thoughts about his mooted F1 debut in Abu Dhabi following Luca Badoer's recent poor showings.

Badoer is no slouch but a lack of testing in the current car and no recent single-seater race experience left him looking like an amateur. Loeb is almost certainly less well-equipped than the Italian and it is likely that he'll find himself similarly exposed.

I’ve no doubt that expectations for Loeb would be lower than those for Badoer and that therefore he’d be cut a little slack, but on the other hand nobody wants to be miles off the pace, particular not somebody as competitive as Loeb. Could he bear to risk his bulletproof reputation?

[davyboy]

I was thinking exactly the same thing myself after first practice in Valencia. Its more than just whether he'd be cut slack, there's the whole issue of utterly humiliating one of the greatest drivers of all time. The thing is Badoer's drive was in essence a gift from Ferrari, repaying his years of dedication as a back room test driver. The gift turned out to be a kick in the teeth and he will be remembered more for what he couldn't do than what he could do.

I've no doubt that Loeb would be a competent Grand Prix driver. He has proven that in testing and also in his sportscar outings. However he will begin the event in Abu Dhabi more ill prepared than at any time in his recent career and with the potential to scratch some of the sheen off his illustrious rallying track record.

[Super Hans]

It is a bit like Johnny Herbert in the BTCC. He agreed to join the series on the proviso that the testing restrictions were waived to allow him to get up to speed ahead of his debut.

A driver taking on a new discipline without proper preparation is on a hiding to nothing.

If Loeb does turn out to be well off the pace, we bobble-hats would be mindful of his competitive disadvantage, but 99% of people would just think he was rubbish.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

A driver taking on a new discipline without proper preparation is on a hiding to nothing.

Absolutely, never more so than in something as complex as F1 where the competition is world class.

[Mr V]

Then how come Jaime Alguersuari was on the pace of his team mate even though the STR hasn't set the world alight?

I can see what your saying about Loeb, but i don't agree, SL is possibly the best driver in the world, LB definately ain't. It wasn't just the lack of speed on Badoers part, but whenever another car was anywhere near him he couldn't jump out the way quick enough. (Grosjean taking him on the pit lane exit as an example).

That said, if things don't go as well as expected for SL, he has the lack of testing excuse to fall back on. I don't think he has that much to lose if things don't go right is what i'm saying. (whereas, Michael had everything to lose had things not gone right imo, but thats another topic).

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Then how come Jaime Alguersuari was on the pace of his team mate even though the STR hasn't set the world alight?

I think the lack of testing in the STR did probably harm Alguersuari to some extent but the fact that he had been regularly competing in a 400+BHP, high downforce single-seater probably lessened the blow.

[Peat]

plus his team-mate is Sebastian Buemi, a perenially average driver in most catergories i've seen him in....

Good thread Super Hans, i think you've made a very good point. When you've been out of the seat for 10 months and the only practice you get is infront of the world's media, it's gonna be hard.

'For Sure' Loeb will be paying alot of attention to how Luca goes....

[Graz]

I don't think he will be out off. Badoer is in Ferrari which is (now) a race winning car. The expectation in a Toro Rosso will be much less. Also, Alguersuari has done fine which proves it's possible. Badoer was never really up to much anyway. Also, Badoer is a F1 driver by trade anyway so much more would be expected. I don't think a poor performance by Loeb would in any way harm his rally legend status as this is mutually exclusive and I don't think that would put Loeb off having a go if the opportunity arose. I don't think Loeb has anything to lose at all - there are a whole raft of valid excuses if he sucks. And if he goes any way well, then he's a God. Win win in my view.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I find this interesting how everyone claims Badoer "wasn't much" back in his F1 hayday. I'm going to check out some stats...

Luca only drove for Italian teams; most of which were highly uncompetitive.

Selby

[ECW Dan Selby]

1993: Lola BMS Scuderia Italia

Luca Badoer:
RSA Ret
BRA 12
EUR DNQ
SMR 7
ESP Ret
MON DNQ
CAN 15
FRA Ret
GBR Ret
GER Ret
HUN Ret
BEL 13
ITA 10
POR 14
JPN
AUS

NC 0

Michele Alboreto:
RSA Ret
BRA 11
EUR 11
SMR DNQ
ESP DNQ
MON Ret
CAN DNQ
FRA DNQ
GBR DNQ
GER 16
HUN Ret
BEL 14
ITA Ret
POR Ret
JPN
AUS

NC 0

So Badoer qualifies and finishes more races than experienced Michele Alboreto. For me, that's 1-0 Badoer.

---

1995: Minardi Ford

Luca Badoer:
BRA Ret
ARG DNS
SMR 14
ESP Ret
MON Ret
CAN 8
FRA 13
GBR 10
GER Ret
HUN 8
BEL Ret
ITA Ret
POR 14
EUR 11
PAC 15
JPN 9
AUS DNS

NC 0

Pierluigi Martini/Pedro Lamy:
BRA Ret
ARG Ret
SMR 12
ESP 14
MON 7
CAN Ret
FRA Ret
GBR 7
GER RET
--
HUN 9
BEL 10
ITA Ret
POR Ret
EUR 9
PAC 13
JPN 11
AUS 6

(18th) 1 point

This is a close one. Luca looked to outperform the experienced Martini, yet seem to fall short against relative newcomer Pedro Lamy.

1-1

1996: Forti Ford

Luca Badoer:
AUS DNQ
BRA 11
ARG Ret
EUR DNQ
SMR 10
MON Ret
ESP DNQ
CAN Ret
FRA Ret
GBR DNQ
GER DNP
HUN
BEL
ITA
POR
JPN

NC 0

Andrea Montermini:
AUS DNQ
ARG Ret
SMR 10
ESP DNQ
MON DNQ
CAN DNS
FRA DNQ
GBR Ret
GER Ret
HUN DNQ
BEL DNP

NC 0

Luca finished 2 GP, posting a top ten finish, and an 11th place.

2-1 Luca

---

1999: Minardi Ford

Luca Badoer:
AUS Ret
BRA
SMR 8
MON Ret
ESP Ret
CAN 10
FRA 10
GBR Ret
AUT 13
GER 10
HUN 14
BEL Ret
ITA Ret
EUR Ret
MAL Ret
JPN Ret

Marc Gené:
AUS Ret
BRA 9
SMR 9
MON Ret
ESP Ret
CAN 8
FRA Ret
GBR 15
AUT 11
GER 9
HUN 17
BEL 16
ITA Ret
EUR 6
MAL 9
JPN Ret

Gené finished plenty more times, and scored a point. Although if you remember correctly, this was infact when Badoer was running in an incredible 4th place at the European GP, only for the gearbox to pack up.

2-2




So, fairly inconclusive then....

Selby

[jab]

He was 92 F3000 champion. That's enough for me to conclude he's decent enough

[ECW Dan Selby]

Oh, absolutely.

I was just taking in to account his F1 tenure.

Selby

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

He was 92 F3000 champion. That's enough for me to conclude he's decent enough

4 wins from 10 starts.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I find this interesting how everyone claims Badoer "wasn't much" back in his F1 hayday. I'm going to check out some stats...

Luca only drove for Italian teams; most of which were highly uncompetitive.

Selby

There is a reason why some drivers only find themselves in uncompetitive machinary

[Born Racer]

If anything, it might encourage him more, because he might reckon he won't look as comparatively bad as Badoer if he's seconds off the pace, due to his lack of F1 experience.

[tristancliffe]

Loeb has competed in motorsport for the last 10 years. Badoer hadn't. Therefore Loeb will be quicker in my view. Loeb is also one of the GOAT's in cars, and therefore would be quicker.

No, I don't think he'd trouble Kimi (or Massa) over a race distance or over one hot lap (too old, to inexperienced... but after several seasons?). But he'd only be tenths off, not weeks.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Mr V

There is a reason why some drivers only find themselves in uncompetitive machinary

Yeh I definately agree, it was more just a quick study to see on what grounds BBC claimed he "wasn't much" on

Selby

[Graz]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I find this interesting how everyone claims Badoer "wasn't much" back in his F1 hayday. I'm going to check out some stats...

Luca only drove for Italian teams; most of which were highly uncompetitive.

Selby

If he was good enough, one of the bigger teams would have picked him up though. Other Minardi etc. type drivers have gone on to better things (Fisi, Alonso, Trulli for example). Not a fan of stats myself but given he is the driver with most races never to score a point is telling. Other drivers managed to score points in cars such as Minardis.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Graz

If he was good enough, one of the bigger teams would have picked him up though. Other Minardi etc. type drivers have gone on to better things (Fisi, Alonso, Trulli for example). Not a fan of stats myself but given he is the driver with most races never to score a point is telling. Other drivers managed to score points in cars such as Minardis.

In terms of drivers scoring points in cars such as Minardis, he almost finished fourth at the Nurburgring in '99 and he was quite competitive at Monaco in '96. However, the point remains that a number of drivers have used Minarid as a spring board to bigger things. Badoer, on the other hand was passed over for a Benetton seat in '94 and of course the Ferrari seat in '99, which does perhaps indicate he isn't in the same league as, say Trulli or Fisichella.

[davyboy]

The bottom line with Badoer is that he hadn't raced anything, let alone a Grand Prix car, in more than 10 years. Irrespective of how they performed in their prime, I'd defy anyone to replicate what he did, and set the world alight. It was simply not going to happen.

[Jamesy-18]

Originally Posted by jab

He was 92 F3000 champion. That's enough for me to conclude he's decent enough

Many many moons have passed since then though. And arguable the driving standards have risen considerably.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Many many moons have passed since then though. And arguable the driving standards have risen considerably.

I think its impossible to say the driving standards have risen at all. That's an age old debate as to whether drivers were better in different eras but its more likely than not that a good driver in their prime back then would, if in their prime now, be a good driver too.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by jab

He was 92 F3000 champion. That's enough for me to conclude he's decent enough

Is or was? 1992 was 17 years ago.... the accumulation of frustration driving cars that were never quite 'there' then spending 10 years lapping Fiorano at *lap record speeds* every day without another soul on track is more likely the path trodden here...

Mr Loeb will likely be on 'it' in race pace by the end of the weekend, if the car is set up reasonably well. He could set some hot laps in the race, I doubt his lack of serious testing will allow him to end up in Q3...

[jab]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Mr Loeb will likely be on 'it' in race pace by the end of the weekend, if the car is set up reasonably well.

Why is it any more likely that a rally driver who has driven an F1 car 3 times would be on the pace when a man who has been driving F1 cars pretty much continually since 1993 couldn't get on the pace in 2 weekends in a race-winning car?

[Born Racer]

I just don't buy this excuse people are making for him about not having raced for so long. What was he doing when testing if not trying to lap quickly, something you endeavour to do in racing too? Besides, it wasn't an issue of a lack of racecraft (Grosjean pitlane pass in Valencia aside). He was just dire.

I also find it confusing how he could be a good tester if he's so off the pace. What use would info about tyres for example be if he's significantly off the pace of the race drivers? That said, maybe he got pretty damn good at lapping Fiorano.