F1 SC flag rules

[EvilPumpkin]

First of all, a big thumbs up to all the guys and gals at the Monaco GP - some outstanding trackside marshalling there and all on TV!

I'm still a bit confused about some of the flagging though. I really have trouble getting my head around some of them.

The Alonso/Schumi thing after the SC is a good example. I get that there is now a different point where passing is permissable after an SC. Fair enough. However, from watching various re-runs of this, it appears as though there is a green flag prior to the actual SC line.

I'm not sure if this was an error or if this is something to do with the regs - anyone got any ideas?

[EvilPumpkin]

Ok subsequent to the Stewards' ruling, I'm now even more confused.

The SC went in and the sectors at and subsequent to the SC had gone green. By normal regs, they should have been permitted to go racing once the SC line was crossed. However, it's now been stated that the race finished under SC.

The whole thing is being discussed in the F1 forum in any case, but I know we have a lot of F1 veterans here from various countries so I'm coming at this from a purely "flag marshal" perspective. Does anyone have an explanation on this or could maybe clarify it?

[Shelagh]

EP - my initial thought was that it just sums up what I think is so wrong with the "new" SC procedures introduced into British marshalling - ie that cars see the green flag prior to the start/finish line but are not allowed to overtake without a penalty.

When we did a flag training event earlier this year, I tried to sum it up by saying that a "stationary" green means everything is clear and go racing again, but a "waved" green doesn't meant that ahead of the start line. How many drivers are going to make that distinction - especially in the heat of battle????

The old system worked and I wouldn't be surprised if some rules now get changed.

[EvilPumpkin]

hopefully so - fortunately, we didn't get that one inflicted on us in Ireland.

Subsequent, I've actually looked up the regs for this and to be honest, I'm none the wiser.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

What does that actually mean? Does that mean only at the line? Or at all posts? From first reading, I would presume it meant at the line only.

I think there's an appendix somewhere that covers the flag regs in more detail, but it doesn't seem to be easy to find.

[Shelagh]

EP - you're right. Does anything define "the line"? Is it an SC line or the Start/Finish line?

Nobody said it would be easy doing the flagging but at least in this case it is down to "better minds" than ours to make the call. Over to you, Damon............

Btw - we're finally making it to Anglesey this year (end of this month) so watch out Ireland - you may be next on our westward journey ............!!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

http://www.msaevents.co.uk/bgpmarshals.php

Is the direct link

This was posted in the Silverstone thread very recently, with a sort of tongue in cheek comment (elsewhere) that we should perhaps do some homework on the rules before the event.
(think these documents also stipulate that the team has to sign that they have read & understood them)
Anyhow, we're all aware now of F1's 40:13

& as I said in that thread


even racing in (British) national series waving a green flag after a safety car deployment does not mean that racing recommences until a specific point has been passed. In this case..see a million arguements elsewhere.
BTW I'm 100% with the stewards decision. Not the penalty perhaps..

Now then, flag marshals, do you get the call over the radio to deploy the green?

The only other thing to say that if there was not a radio call to the flaggies, then how likely is it that they knew this instance of the safety car going in was the last lap.
Not very is my opinion, therefore they would do the same as the 3 previous instances today at Monaco.

[EvilPumpkin]

Absolutely - I'm not querying what the marshals did now that I've had a chance to look at the regs (ok I was hoping someone here would save me from looking it up... I'm lazy... ) - it certainly seems to be in line with the regs, and I'm sure they were instructed to do so in any case. Just out of curiousity, do the flag posts control the lights or are they done from race control?

I just think that the whole thing is very nebulous and unclear in terms of how the flags are deployed. I've already seen a lot of uneducated posts on other sites blaming the marshals for this

[White flag man]

Schumacher has been demoted to 12th, after overtaking before the finishing line.
Stewards have penalised him 20 seconds, Mercedes are going to appeal.

[Bodysnatcher]

aye, there are a lot of people that watch F1 that have absolutely no idea how it all works.
But think they do.

[Shelagh]

When did F1 ever go for "clear cut" rules?

Hasty exit as that is really politics.....................!

[EvilPumpkin]

LOL - I don't understand how it works!

[Hepatic]

thought the flagging was first class today, even saw a stationary yellow in a GP2 race which, even if the FIA don't agree with them, was a fantastic bit of communication. think this incident sums up what most people feared about this when it was introduced - green means go in my book, if a driver sees a green flag but isn't allowed to overtake until "a line", thats confusing to the driver. hope the FIA can figure out that a change is needed to help avoid confusion.

[Bodysnatcher]

listen, the rules were written by lawyers for lawyers..
at one point in section 40, 40.7 references 40.15 as an exception, but 40.15 does not exist)

40.7 All competing cars must then reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the first time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.
With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits. Overtaking will only be permitted under the following circumstances :
- if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car ;
- under 40.15 below ;
blah de blah de blah

What I want to know is why is there a "first safety car line" distinct from the "The Line"

[Shelagh]

Like I said - clear as mud!

Another reason for no longer doing F1. We had an incident as "judges of fact" at Curborough yesterday - pretty clear cut, but how to do same at a GP??

[Dan Friel]

If it hadn't been the last lap, I think Schumie might have been ok doing what he did. Seems the rules are different if it's the last lap, just to add to the confusion!

[EvilPumpkin]

Just while we're on the subject, how are you guys getting on with the greens both ways thing after an SC? It's been a year now - has it caused many problems?

[Bodysnatcher]

had a lot of practice with the simultaneous green after SC at recent Brands BTCC round - no problems for me at 22 , but the fields were usually tightly bunched and the greens came out while the whole field was between 24 and finish line.

I believe ONE set of (SC) rules applicable to all MSA sanctioned races is much preferred to what existed before. There may be flaws, but if the flaws are consistent I can live with them.

I remember one manic day where there were 3 different sets of SC deployments and pit in/out rules during SC - I was observer on the post controlling pit exit lights. When Julian came over to run through his series variation I'd had enough.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

What I want to know is why is there a "first safety car line" distinct from the "The Line"

Presumably because having green flags waving, but not being able to overtake, looked odd Now the line is probably about the spot where the track would go green with the SC clear anyway.

Personally, I think the daft rule is that the SC comes in on the last lap regardless. Reading the F1 thread, it seems to be to look good for the cameras. I think I'd prefer having the field following the SC car on the slowing down lap if I'm still out there dealing with the incident that needed the SC in the first place...

[Asp]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Just while we're on the subject, how are you guys getting on with the greens both ways thing after an SC? It's been a year now - has it caused many problems?

Deploying the SC is much easier nowadays with the both ways / instantaneous flagging - and safer.
I've not had any problems with the instantaneous green. In 99% of cases, the field is well bunched up by the time the green is out so it makes no discrenable difference - they'll either have spotted the car without its lights or actually pulling off before they say any greens. I think on once or twice a straggler has seen a green with me well before the startline - and it's pre-warned them to get a move on (before they get lapped by racing cars) so that's a good thing too.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

I believe ONE set of (SC) rules applicable to all MSA sanctioned races is much preferred to what existed before. There may be flaws, but if the flaws are consistent I can live with them.

Any system will have its drawbacks; consistency is the next best thing to perfection.

[Hepatic]

well its not going to go away too quickly, Mercedes are appealing the decision.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=40836

Quite interested in the quote from Ross Brawn who cites the fact that marshals were showing green flags and lights were an indication that it was OK to race again. Personally i agree with his view but the rules don't allow them to do so. Getting drivers to trust your flag signals is hard enough without adding this kind of issue to it. Compare this with the way the 24hrs was flagged and i know which one i think works

[Woolley]

They've kind of got a point. If you get a green, it's OK to go race, so why make them wait until the start line? I still say there should be a green on the start line only. When it waves, go. All other are a) potentially confusing and b) a waste of effort.

Another example of FIA being completely incapable of properly thinking through a problem, only considering F1 in any case, and then cascading the resulting mess down the chain. Go watch the Americans, they seem to make it work OK.

[SWCRacing]

In the context of an F1 / FIA safety car deployment, there are actually three lines, and this is my undersatnding of them:
The CONTROL Line - more commonly known as the start finish line. When the safetycar is withdrawn, there is NO overtaking until this line is crossed
The 1st and 2nd SAFETY CAR lines are at the entrance and exit if the pits - if you are coming in to the pits, once you have crossed this line, you can "overtake" any cars still on the main part of the track whilst you enter the pits. The line at the exit of the pits works in the reverse of this, namely you can be overtaken by cars which are on the normal track whilst you coming out of the pits UNTIL you cross this line
The rules are quite easy to understand. Schummi broke them!!
The rules are VER clear on this, why not read and understand them? I f I can, anyone can

[Zider Drinker]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

The CONTROL Line - more commonly known as the start finish line. When the safetycar is withdrawn, there is NO overtaking until this line is crossed
The rules are VER clear on this, why not read and understand them? I f I can, anyone can

Are they very clear? As it got proved in China where the Safety Car Line entering the pits was before the last corner, both Lewis & Vettel over took Webber after that line BUT before the start finish line. And as was described in commentary from new rule 40:13, that was perfectly allowed as the green flags were out AND they had passed the Safety Car Line. Also no action was taken by the FIA Stewards who obviously deemed it a non-issue...

[EvilPumpkin]

I don't want to get into a discussion on the rights and wrongs of that specific incident in this thread - there's one for that in the F1 forum. My query here was to the marshals that have experience in F1 as to where the greens should start, as the first green I saw was prior to the SC line. I'm still no wiser on that one even after reading the regs. The paragraph dealing with this is, IMO, ambiguous - it can either be taken to mean that all yellows and SC boards should be withdrawn and the green goes out on all posts - OR that the green only goes out at the SC line.