Trainee Flag Days/Assessment.

[MotorBreath]

Hi all,
Just wondering as to wether you can be assessed on your second flagging day, or if you have to do 2 days flag plus assessment day.
Cheers

[Dave Brand]

Do you really think you're ready for an assessment after only one day's flagging? What's the rush?

[MotorBreath]

Dave, there is no rush. I was just asking if in theory you could be assessed on your second day's flagging.
I am not looking at becoming a flaggie, incident is my preferred discipline, however, i understand the importance of having a basic knowledge of what the flags mean & how and when to waved them.

[deley]

Originally Posted by MotorBreath

Hi all,
Just wondering as to wether you can be assessed on your second flagging day, or if you have to do 2 days flag plus assessment day.
Cheers

It is clearly stated in the PRC that for Trainee to Track it is a minimum of 2 days flagging.

It is also quite clear that you cannot be assessed "on your second flagging day" as until you have completed that day and received an attendance signature as a "flag" duty you fail to meet the criteria of holding the minimum 2 flag duty signatures in order to qualify for having a flag day assessment.

[icorper]

Personally I am hoping to upgrade from Trainee this year, I have had 2 days flagging and will need assessment before upgrade. With 10 days still to go this year I'll probably get chance to have another day flagging before the end of the year.

From my understanding the Trainee to Track assessment is just to make sure you understand the use of the flags and some reasonable handle of the use in a live situation.

I personally enjoyed flagging when I got the chance, but in meetings like BTCC there are usually loads of flaggies anyway so no need for a trainee to flag.

[deley]

Originally Posted by icorper

....

From my understanding the Trainee to Track assessment is just to make sure you understand the use of the flags and some reasonable handle of the use in a live situation.

.....

Assessment guidelines include

Flag signals
Meaning of On-post flags and when/how to use them
Start line flags and their reflections on post
Supplementary signals (Hazard boards, Safety car boards)
Safety car regulations
Start procedures (green flag laps etc)

Use of flags
Display of flags (i.e. presentation of waved & stationary)
Display of hazard or SC boards
Appropriate signals (e.g. not blue flagging the leader)

I would also suggest it might be useful to understand the difference between MSA and FIA flagging.

[MotorBreath]

Thanks deley, that makes perfect sense. I didn't look at it like that
I've already done 2 flag days, and will probably do a couple more before going for assessment.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by deley

It is clearly stated in the PRC that for Trainee to Track it is a minimum of 2 days flagging.

The operative word there being "minimum"! It's a very rare person who will achieve an acceptable level of competence at any level doing just the minimum specified number of days.

Originally Posted by icorper

but in meetings like BTCC there are usually loads of flaggies anyway so no need for a trainee to flag.

Those are just the sort of meetings you should be flagging at. It will give you the opportunity to work with experienced flaggies who should(!) be able to pass on their experience & knowledge - you'll learn more in one day with a good flaggie than you will in ten days flagging alone!

[Terrible-Tones]

It says in the PRC that there is a requirement for 2 days flagging signatures. I think it is ambigious as to whether this can include the actual assessment day.

Further, the online guidelines for the grading scheme as downloaded from the MSA website actually do not give a minimum at all, (as far as I can tell) So one assumes on reading these that you could, theoretically, just do the assessment and as long as you were "up to standard" then you would pass.

Therefore, at present, there is no clear guidance on this particular issue. This is an oversight I believe.

On a more pragmatic note - what is "up to standard"? This is bound to be subjective on behalf of the both the assessing flaggie and PC. Are the MSA looking for someone who can wave a flag in a situation where we are short staffed, and make a reasonable show of it, or are they looking for a fully competant flaggie? One days assessment (and if you need it a day or two learning) would show the former, two or three days flagging is not going to make the latter.

This issue shows itself again at Experienced where there is most certainly requirement for 5 days sigs for flagging and an assessment. My argument here is 5 days is a sort of no mans land, not enough to make you a Flaggie (and we have a seperate grade for that anyhow) but probably more than you need to show you are reasonably competent. I know this number of days is causing a good deal of resentment amongst track marshals wising to upgrade - and is leading to a bottle neck at this level. What's more you have already shown competance (presumably) on upgrading from Trainee to Track, so you are just retesting the same thing. The argument might run that you expect your Exp Marshal to be a fully competent flaggie, but that surely is why we have a Flaggie Grade and our guy wants to upgrade to Incident, not Flaggie. This just seems to be historical issue left over from when the scheme was changed, but then the flag grade was reintroduced, without taking out the prerequisite bits for an Incident marshal to cover the loss of Flagging Grade.

If the requirement was that instead of doing Flags, you had to do Specialist (that would be good - we are nearly always short), then I could comfortably say that 1 or 2 days would be enough to show the ropes, but 5 is nowhere near enough to be competent to be considered a trained Specialist. Anyway the question is would you be grading as Incident or Specialist?

Sorry about the long post - but all you guys know this subject is close to my heart. The grading scheme is going in the right direction but as yet has, in my view, glaring errors and omissions. It's too easy (number of required days for instance) in the areas it needs to really test, but too hard to do in areas that are just not relevant.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

The argument might run that you expect your Exp Marshal to be a fully competent flaggie, but that surely is why we have a Flaggie Grade and our guy wants to upgrade to Incident, not Flaggie. This just seems to be historical issue left over from when the scheme was changed, but then the flag grade was reintroduced, without taking out the prerequisite bits for an Incident marshal to cover the loss of Flagging Grade.

Don't forget that the Flag grade is over & above "Experienced" - there is now no incident grade as such.

[deadsquirrel]

For trainee to Course, I want a flagging assesment to confirm:
1. Can put out the correct flag in response to a neighbouring posts flag state - so a green or yellow.

2. Can put out their own yellow flag in the correct state - waved or standing and know when to withdraw it. A waved flag for a pulled off car, way off course is bad. A stationary or no flag for marshals working trackside is bad.

3. Does not put out on the 'green flag' lap after a red flag in a session.....

4. Can put out an EMERGENCY blue flag, but never at the expense of missing points 1 and 2. An emergency blue is for extreme speed differences, where not putting one out would be a safety concern.



For course to experienced, I want to see basic blue flagging ability - for 99% of races of 15-20 minutes, there's mostly very little needed and there's no need for 'magic'.

[icorper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by icorper
but in meetings like BTCC there are usually loads of flaggies anyway so no need for a trainee to flag.

Those are just the sort of meetings you should be flagging at. It will give you the opportunity to work with experienced flaggies who should(!)

True, but such meetings attracting many more flaggies the chance of flagging at high profile meetings for trainees is very limited.

My first day flagging was at Brands on a club meeting with an excellent and very experienced flag marshal. Very enjoyable day. Enlightening and inspirational!

Good, experienced flag marshals don't just show up for high profile meetings, and, at club meetings there aren't so may to go around so more chance of trainees flagging.

[Shelagh]

Just remember that even the most experienced flaggies can make mistakes - and I should know!!! If it happens on your assessment, don't be too disheartened.

I still reckon that I've only ever done a "good" day's flagging when I've thrown down my blue flag in disgust at least once!

[chrisjt1985]

Just on the flagging on Touring Cars, I asked to do some flagging days for BTCC this year to be told they don't do flagging for experiance on those events. So whilst you say these would be the best days to do, it was definetely not available to me.

I'm going for my flag assessment this weekend myself. Hopefully I won't make too much of a mess of it! If any of this weekends racers are reading, and they get plenty of odd, overenthusiastic Blue Flags from the same post, I'm sorry if they are wrong!

Maybe I should get the "L" plates to put on the side of the flag point

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Don't forget that the Flag grade is over & above "Experienced" - there is now no incident grade as such.

Yes exactly the point. So it would seem pointless trying to make Incident Marshals into "Flaggies" when they don't want to be.

I do agree however with checking their competance, but only that, to step in if needs must.

Likewise I have come across marshals who really want to be flaggies and not incident, and therefore are whinging at the 5 day requirement to do incident.

In my view either; we do both and get rid of the Flag grade, and test everyones flagging skills by making them as experienced as a flaggie grade is now (not sure how many days or years that would take?) as well as Incident skills

or

we seperate them completely and only expect Incident guys to cover if needed, and show reasonable competance only (which doesn't need 5 days plus an assessment)

What we have is a mix of both the above, with the worse of each, which is hindering the upgrade path because so many are against doing so many days, but doing 5 days doesn't actually prove anything at all. Therefore there are a good number of marshals who have decided not to upgrade when in fact they could be.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

For trainee to Course, I want a flagging assesment to confirm:
1. Can put out the correct flag in response to a neighbouring posts flag state - so a green or yellow.

2. Can put out their own yellow flag in the correct state - waved or standing and know when to withdraw it. A waved flag for a pulled off car, way off course is bad. A stationary or no flag for marshals working trackside is bad.

3. Does not put out on the 'green flag' lap after a red flag in a session.....

4. Can put out an EMERGENCY blue flag, but never at the expense of missing points 1 and 2. An emergency blue is for extreme speed differences, where not putting one out would be a safety concern.



For course to experienced, I want to see basic blue flagging ability - for 99% of races of 15-20 minutes, there's mostly very little needed and there's no need for 'magic'.

Totally agree with the above - pretty certain it won't take a good marshal (upgrading from Track to Exp) 5 days to learn that. I would think most would be able to do it without any "extra" training at all. I would be disappointed if they couldn't - and that would show on an assessment. So basically - we don't need to do 5 days...lets get rid of the requirment. Let the individual (who will be a marshal of some experience anyway)decide if he is ready for assessment and how many days he feels comfortable with.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

I would be disappointed if they couldn't - and that would show on an assessment. So basically - we don't need to do 5 days...lets get rid of the requirment. Let the individual (who will be a marshal of some experience anyway)decide if he is ready for assessment and how many days he feels comfortable with.

Week in, week out I see crazy flags being shown. I can't and don't blame the individuals when they are often fairly inexperienced marshals. But they don't get shown better and the craziness is ingrained until maybe they get put on post with an experienced flag marshal to correct them (and how often does that ever happen these days!)

In these days of 1 or 2 marshals per post, we somehow have to get to them early in their careers and get the basics into them - maybe we could produce a little 'pocket sheet' with the basics on?

[The Fat Clerk]

Emergency Blue Flag, that's a new one on me.
If the preceeding car is that slow, surely a waved white would be more appropriate.
As an ex driver I'd do away with the blue flag altogether if I had my way.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Week in, week out I see crazy flags being shown. I can't and don't blame the individuals when they are often fairly inexperienced marshals. But they don't get shown better and the craziness is ingrained until maybe they get put on post with an experienced flag marshal to correct them (and how often does that ever happen these days!)

In these days of 1 or 2 marshals per post, we somehow have to get to them early in their careers and get the basics into them - maybe we could produce a little 'pocket sheet' with the basics on?

Hmmm Ok - what about changing the requirement from simply 5 signed days (which more than likely are gonna be on your own)

to

2 days with a graded flag marshal. (Only issue is actually getting those two days). The second of which can be an assessment and could be signed off by the Flaggie?

??

[deley]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

It says in the PRC that there is a requirement for 2 days flagging signatures. I think it is ambigious as to whether this can include the actual assessment day.

Further, the online guidelines for the grading scheme as downloaded from the MSA website actually do not give a minimum at all, (as far as I can tell) So one assumes on reading these that you could, theoretically, just do the assessment and as long as you were "up to standard" then you would pass.

Therefore, at present, there is no clear guidance on this particular issue. This is an oversight I believe. ........

<edit D. Eley>

I refer to my previous post when I answered the OP

Originally Posted by deley

It is clearly stated in the PRC that for Trainee to Track it is a minimum of 2 days flagging.

It is also quite clear that you cannot be assessed "on your second flagging day" as until you have completed that day and received an attendance signature as a "flag" duty you fail to meet the criteria of holding the minimum 2 flag duty signatures in order to qualify for having a flag day assessment.

It is clear and simple

The PRC clearly says the number of days and any minimum number required at any particular duty (and in the case of the OP which refers to Trainee to Track this is 15 with 2 minimum for flagging).

It is clear that the assessment process includes a check that the person has met the pre-requisites (ie numbers of days/signatures including training).

It is clear then that you cannot use the assessment day to count as one of your "duty signature days" in order to get to the minimum required as until you reach the pre-requisite minimum you are (should be) unable to put in for an assessment.


Dave

[deley]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

For trainee to Course, I want a flagging assesment to confirm:
1. Can put out the correct flag in response to a neighbouring posts flag state - so a green or yellow.

2. Can put out their own yellow flag in the correct state - waved or standing and know when to withdraw it. A waved flag for a pulled off car, way off course is bad. A stationary or no flag for marshals working trackside is bad.

3. Does not put out on the 'green flag' lap after a red flag in a session.....

4. Can put out an EMERGENCY blue flag, but never at the expense of missing points 1 and 2. An emergency blue is for extreme speed differences, where not putting one out would be a safety concern.



For course to experienced, I want to see basic blue flagging ability - for 99% of races of 15-20 minutes, there's mostly very little needed and there's no need for 'magic'.

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Totally agree with the above - pretty certain it won't take a good marshal (upgrading from Track to Exp) 5 days to learn that. I would think most would be able to do it without any "extra" training at all. I would be disappointed if they couldn't - and that would show on an assessment. So basically - we don't need to do 5 days...lets get rid of the requirment. Let the individual (who will be a marshal of some experience anyway)decide if he is ready for assessment and how many days he feels comfortable with.

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Week in, week out I see crazy flags being shown. I can't and don't blame the individuals when they are often fairly inexperienced marshals. But they don't get shown better and the craziness is ingrained until maybe they get put on post with an experienced flag marshal to correct them (and how often does that ever happen these days!)

In these days of 1 or 2 marshals per post, we somehow have to get to them early in their careers and get the basics into them - maybe we could produce a little 'pocket sheet' with the basics on?

So I think the 3rd quote proves the error in the the first two - we need all marshals to be more competent with flags in order to ensure we can catch and address this "crazy flags" and "inexperience" issue mentioned as early as possible. [Much the same as we would if we saw an inexperienced marshal doing some "crazy" incident work].

By improving the overall KASE across the board it provides a much wider pool with which to bring on and develop new marshals... and yes we do need good flag marshals to take their part in this in the same way as we need good incident marshals to help pass on incident skills, good IOs to pass on good incident and team management skills and so on.

Finally, remember that while we are individual marshals who may have our own views as to what we want to do as a marshal (and to some extent how) there is a wider purpose to bring those individuals together into a team - be that on an individual post, or all the marshals acting as a bigger team at an individual meeting, or indeed all marshals across the UK being part of the big team that is marshalling. So while as individuals we might not like certain aspects we should at least try and understand maybe that some poor unfortunate people have to try and come up with something to please all of the marshals (never going to happen) while delivering what they think is necessary to support marshalling and motorsport in the widest possible way when no one knows who and what level of skill/experience will be available on any one day at any one event.


Dave

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

It is clear and simple

The PRC clearly says the number of days and any minimum number required at any particular duty (and in the case of the OP which refers to Trainee to Track this is 15 with 2 minimum for flagging).

Dave

Yes the PRC says that - but all the documentation and guidelines published online by the MSA do not!

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/conten...sp?article=758


In fact the documentation specifically mentions 5 days minimum for each duty for Track to Experienced Track, but from Trainee to Track it just says

"15 days Track and Flag Duties"

It does NOT specifically mention 2 days or any other number for that matter. Technically your assessment day could be enough to fulfil this published criteria. (I'm not for one minute advocating that you would do that you understand )

I am merely pointing out that the MSA paperwork is inconsistent. In the PRC it clearly says 2, but in the online documentation it is not specified, but strangely it is for Track to Exp Track. Even using the PRC wording it is not clear whether one of those 2 days could also be an assessment day. I would suggest that it could.

The mere fact that we are having this conversation suggests to me that the grading system is very poorly presented.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

Finally, remember that while we are individual marshals who may have our own views as to what we want to do as a marshal (and to some extent how) there is a wider purpose to bring those individuals together into a team - be that on an individual post, or all the marshals acting as a bigger team at an individual meeting, or indeed all marshals across the UK being part of the big team that is marshalling. So while as individuals we might not like certain aspects we should at least try and understand maybe that some poor unfortunate people have to try and come up with something to please all of the marshals (never going to happen) while delivering what they think is necessary to support marshalling and motorsport in the widest possible way when no one knows who and what level of skill/experience will be available on any one day at any one event.
Dave

You know Dave - I couldn't agree more on this point. For me the sticking point is the minimum 5 days flagging (or incident if you want to be a flaggie). I just fail to see what it proves? To me you measure a persons skill by assessing them. If they pass the assessment all well and good, if not then they need more training. Doing 5 days will be enough for some, too much for others, and not enough for some more. So rather then setting it in stone, let the individual decide, it is up to them if they are ready or not and pass the assessment...it is a simple equation.

At present I receive so many complaints about this from Track Marshals not bothering to upgrade to Exp for this issue (and another, but that is another story). This has to be bad as the grades then do not reflect accurately the experience level (on the whole) which makes forming a team more difficult.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Yes the PRC says that - but all the documentation and guidelines published online by the MSA do not!

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/conten...sp?article=758


In fact the documentation specifically mentions 5 days minimum for each duty for Track to Experienced Track, but from Trainee to Track it just says

"15 days Track and Flag Duties"

It does NOT specifically mention 2 days or any other number for that matter. Technically your assessment day could be enough to fulfil this published criteria. (I'm not for one minute advocating that you would do that you understand )

I am merely pointing out that the MSA paperwork is inconsistent. In the PRC it clearly says 2, but in the online documentation it is not specified, but strangely it is for Track to Exp Track. Even using the PRC wording it is not clear whether one of those 2 days could also be an assessment day. I would suggest that it could.

The mere fact that we are having this conversation suggests to me that the grading system is very poorly presented.

I agree it could be better and more consistent in the information and how it is presented but it is still quite clear that there are pre-requistes that need to be met (attendance days/duties and training) in order to go forward for an assessment.


As for the number of days I personally believe it is too few at each grade and people should have to do more in both incident and flag.


Rather than continue on here I will take the matter up with the MSA.



Dave

[Greem]

One small point: why is flagging seen as such an onerous, boring & difficult chore by so many marshals?

Genuine question because I really don't understand the reason for that attitude. Neither do I understand why so many people who haven't tried (at trainee level) a day of flagging already view it with such dislike - disdain, almost.

When all's said and done we're all there for the same reasons (give or take a bit) so being able to apply ourselves to any duty should be the aim.