McLarens Annus Horribilisus

Armco Bender · 22 Jun 2015, 05:51 (Ref:3552905)

I can't think of any major team thats ever had such a bad season.
In days gone bye at least you could drag out the past years car if the current model didn't live up to expectations.
McLaren would be better off entering the drivers in 2CV's,at least they could go the race distance.

isynge · 22 Jun 2015, 07:27 (Ref:3552919)

Reminds me of nothing so much as Footwork Arrows' abortive season with the Porsche engine in 1991, although with the passing of time, no option to plug in a Cosworth as a fallback.

Sodemo · 22 Jun 2015, 10:19 (Ref:3552980)

MasterCard Lola?

**BertMk2** · 22 Jun 2015, 13:39 (Ref:3553027)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

MasterCard Lola?

I don't think they fall under the heading of 'major team'

The similarity with the Honda situation is that they entered a year too soon. The Lolas were supposed to be in from the following year but moved it forward a year (and were then hugely underprepared as well as underfunded). Honda should have kept on blowing engines on a dyno for another year 'dismal' is probably being generous for their performance so far.

chillibowl · 22 Jun 2015, 14:49 (Ref:3553050)

even the radically designed Williams FW26 (the walrus) season was better than what Mclaren are going through now.

brought this up i the other thread and i know a lot of people here respect the 'stiff upper lip' style but cant say i am a fan. i find it disingenuous.

we clearly know things are not going well (they received 50 grid spots worth of penalties, lost both cars early, and ruined the one set of new parts they had) and no amount of spin control will hide that fact.

some say this type of behaviour is proper sportsmanship and/or proper behaviour...for me proper behaviour would be to stand up and speak honestly about their shortcomings and the difficulties they face in correcting their misfortune.

Biscuits In A Red Bull · 22 Jun 2015, 15:17 (Ref:3553066)

But I love the way Button's taking it. It's almost a joke to him now. A WDC driver spending his time in the worst car/engine package besides Manor. He knows there's improvement but deep down inside he's smug because he's a match for 'the best driver of this generation of all time ever from Spain' Fernando Alonso and has actually scored points (plural!!!!!!!!), unlike his overhyped teammate.

Mike Harte · 22 Jun 2015, 16:33 (Ref:3553085)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillibowl

even the radically designed Williams FW26 (the walrus) season was better than what Mclaren are going through now.

brought this up i the other thread and i know a lot of people here respect the 'stiff upper lip' style but cant say i am a fan. i find it disingenuous.

we clearly know things are not going well (they received 50 grid spots worth of penalties, lost both cars early, and ruined the one set of new parts they had) and no amount of spin control will hide that fact.

some say this type of behaviour is proper sportsmanship and/or proper behaviour...for me proper behaviour would be to stand up and speak honestly about their shortcomings and the difficulties they face in correcting their misfortune.

I really think that you are being overly harsh on the team, and it's drivers. They have acknowledged on numerous ocassions that there are major problems, and on the whole, are quietly going about trying to rectify the situation. Constantly pouring out your grievences to the media and the general public doesn't help to solve the problems, and would probably just be an irritant to Honda, who are, I don't believe, charging McLaren for the PSUs currently. And in addition, it is believed that they are also paying Alonso's wages. The moral must be that you don't bite off the hand that's feeding you.

You are also being unfair about the new parts that were smashed on Alonso's car on the first lap. He didn't get in the way of Kimi; Kimi "lost control" of his car in a way that has not been explained, in much the same way that he "lost control" of it at the previous race. The incident was totally out McLaren's control, and they could well feel aggrieved about the errant Ferrari.

chillibowl · 22 Jun 2015, 16:48 (Ref:3553088)

fair point but in my defense im not being anymore harsh than others are being with their assessments of RB's media strategy or with Hamilton quotes.

perhaps it would be more productive if we all took a step back from such posturing

Mike E · 22 Jun 2015, 17:37 (Ref:3553093)

I was thinking this season bears some similarities to the McLaren-Peugeot of 1994. But looking at the results, that car clearly had some pace when the engine held together.

Hakkinen: R R 3 R R R R 3 R DNS 2 3 3 7 12
Brundle: R R 8 2 11 R R R R 4 R 5 6 R R 3
Alliot: Drove in the race Hakkinen missed and.... R

Biscuits In A Red Bull · 22 Jun 2015, 18:09 (Ref:3553106)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You are also being unfair about the new parts that were smashed on Alonso's car on the first lap. He didn't get in the way of Kimi; Kimi "lost control" of his car in a way that has not been explained, in much the same way that he "lost control" of it at the previous race. The incident was totally out McLaren's control, and they could well feel aggrieved about the errant Ferrari.

We all know that in the split second Kimi had before correcting the initial slide, he saw Alonso in his left mirror and thought "you're coming with me!"

cds_uk · 22 Jun 2015, 19:28 (Ref:3553130)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

But I love the way Button's taking it. It's almost a joke to him now. A WDC driver spending his time in the worst car/engine package besides Manor. He knows there's improvement but deep down inside he's smug because he's a match for 'the best driver of this generation of all time ever from Spain' Fernando Alonso and has actually scored points (plural!!!!!!!!), unlike his overhyped teammate.

I agree that Button is taking it on the chin, the point scoring thing is no big deal though, it was Monaco, Button had reliability, Alonso didn't, if Alonsos car had lasted he would more than likely have scored points aswell. Also, for what it is worth, i think Alonso is shading Button myself.

JeremySmith · 22 Jun 2015, 21:28 (Ref:3553162)

McLaren Honda will work through their troubles ..

Razzzor · 22 Jun 2015, 21:46 (Ref:3553166)

I'm surprised Button is still continuing. If this could be Buttons last year, does he want to bother spending in coming to races to do all of a few laps before it breaks down? The rest of the year they'll probably have grid penalties at every race. He must really love driving, even in last position, to stick with it. I bet Kimi wouldn't have. or perhaps it's just through loyalty after McLaren dropped their big up-and-comer, after years of support and finance in their young driver programme, for him.

I don't see how you can possibly leave Vandoorne in the cold next year though.

Paradise City · 22 Jun 2015, 21:57 (Ref:3553169)

Mclaren panicking and bawling to the press ain't going to do anything. Attackin' Honda and cryin' and all that kind of stuff, yeah, sure, that's going to get them back on track. Knuckling down will solve it. Being clever will solve it. They've each got the resources, they can do it in the long haul.

They are definitely on the wrong side of the development rules and they are marooned with limited space to manoeuvre.

It's not quite unprecedented. Marlboro McLaren Mercedes were fairly perilous back in the day. I vaguely remember them squabbling with Simteks at certain points.

wnut · 22 Jun 2015, 23:24 (Ref:3553186)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike E

I was thinking this season bears some similarities to the McLaren-Peugeot of 1994. But looking at the results, that car clearly had some pace when the engine held together.

Hakkinen: R R 3 R R R R 3 R DNS 2 3 3 7 12
Brundle: R R 8 2 11 R R R R 4 R 5 6 R R 3
Alliot: Drove in the race Hakkinen missed and.... R

The Honda makes the Peugeot look brilliant!

Interesting stats, thanks Mike!

JeremySmith · 23 Jun 2015, 00:23 (Ref:3553195)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I'm surprised Button is still continuing. If this could be Buttons last year, does he want to bother spending in coming to races to do all of a few laps before it breaks down? The rest of the year they'll probably have grid penalties at every race. He must really love driving, even in last position, to stick with it. I bet Kimi wouldn't have. or perhaps it's just through loyalty after McLaren dropped their big up-and-comer, after years of support and finance in their young driver programme, for him.

I don't see how you can possibly leave Vandoorne in the cold next year though.

Jenson Button is earning very good money to drive for McLaren Honda.. He is under contract to perform his duties, any other questions ? I did not think so...

JABWOA · 23 Jun 2015, 11:59 (Ref:3553304)

Its a testing year for both (pardon the pun) and just highlights further the stupidity of the current testing rules. Macca and Honda are clever to do so quietly, especially when that other mob are constantly berating their engine partner and then expect respect.... The only issue is that McLaren do need to show some improvement each race, and that doesn't seem to occuring quick enough.

Long gone are the days like when Mercedes went to McLaren in the late 90's. Hakkinenn constantly quick but never quite getting the results due to reliability. And then it clicked and they lapped the entire field in the opening race in 98.

chillibowl · 23 Jun 2015, 14:14 (Ref:3553344)

in fairness numerous headlines all based on the same few quotes does not equal berating. and also to be fair, RB are not just berating Renault, they are berating the sport. they are challenging the current system and they are suggesting alternatives.

Mclaren, you guys say, are nice and clever for being quiet but when a storied team like Mclaren are floundering then just maybe they have a responsibility to their fans/supporters to be talking about the larger issues. Whitmarsh did but he is gone now.

anyways, they dont have to criticize Honda but their silence isnt helping Honda, or the sport, either.

demand the testing rules be opened up, demand the engine rules to be opened up...you say its important to keep a tight lip...i think its important to stand up and fight for the right of your partner to succeed.

you guys say silence is golden...im of the opinion in this case silence equals apathy.

Richard C · 23 Jun 2015, 15:28 (Ref:3553369)

A bit late to this thread but here is my thoughts...

McLaren/Honda does not owe any explanations to fans as I don't think they have made any significant promises (sponsors might be a different story). I also don't think that whatever they are doing equals or implies apathy. Now as a fan (and I am a fan of both McLaren and Honda independently and together) the impenetrable wall of stiff upper lips is frustrating. Thankfully they didn't go the Nissan path in WEC. Lots of promises and (so far) nothing but a big faceplant in front of everyone.

Overall, I think they are handling this quite well publicly. They seem to be open that the Honda PU has issues. They are both not playing down or playing up the issues. I have worked professional with corporate partners and when you are both working together to resolve public issues, the last thing you want to do is break down and start pointing fingers at each other. Especially when those on the outside will try hard to find a chink in the (combined) armor and get you to point fingers. Do we want RBR/Renault style drama at McLaren/Honda? It might be entertaining, but it would not help. RBR/Renault is a lesson in how NOT to handle things. Clearly there is a poor working relationship between RBR and Renault privately and it has spilled out publicly.

Regarding the drivers, I suspect it is (and seems to be) much harder for Alonso to toe the party line as I just see him as being more emotional and the frustration does show more often than in Jenson. As to Jenson, I assume he seems to keep a brave face on as he is a real professional (full disclosure... I am a long time Jenson fan.

) and is just making the best of a bad situation and getting paid well to do so.

I think what might get drivers (or really anyone inside the team) upset is internal promises that just don't show up on track. Hopefully nobody is writing checks that can't be cashed! Nobody but those inside know how truthful they are to themselves. If they are truthful and honest, then it can cut back on disappointments.

Now it is time to move beyond my praises for McLaren/Honda.

I have to say I am confused by the reliability issues. Given that my understanding is that changes to the PU to increase reliability are relatively free (does require review and approval I believe) you would think that they should trend positively as time goes on. But they seem to be going backwards, or it is two steps forward and two steps back.

I believe that the "reliability" allowance is open to gaming. And maybe to a degree it is a sneaky way to allow those who are drastically behind to catch up a bit. That it both serves the intended purpose (increase reliability) plus a bit of wink wink, nudge nudge performance under the guise of "reliability". Sneaky in that those who approve the changes might be aware of what is going on. A bit of a helping hand for those who have fallen and can't get up.

So that could explain their apparently lack of reliability improvements. I wonder if they are just throwing things at the wall right now to see what might stick with respects to PU upgrades. I am also a LONG time Honda fan and I am confused as to why they "appear" to be so lost. Sadly, the likely answer is that regardless of how much they say (and might really be) committed to F1, they may have completely underestimated the difficulty of designing and building a competitive hybrid F1 PU. Another equally likely answer is that they tried something really different and it just failed.

While they have some tokens left to use this year and will have more between this season and next, hopefully they haven't designed themselves into a dark alley that their allotment of tokens is not enough and prevents them from escaping the current situation. If I remember correctly the number of off season tokens gradually shrink as time goes on. So at some point there is no hope of engineering your way out of a bad design.

Richard

Mike Harte · 23 Jun 2015, 15:29 (Ref:3553370)

Chillie, you really are looking at this in completely the wrong way.

Firstly, members of the Red Bull brand have , admittedly maybe not in the last couple of/few weeks, publicaly castigated Renault for the poor state of it's PSUs whilst at the same time not acknowledging the deficiences of it's own car. Also, you can't overlook the fact that the power unit was an absolute dog when it first appeared last year and Renault screwed another year out of the FIA to develop it. And they are operating in exactly the same rule framework as all the other engine suppliers. Furthermore, ever since the Strategy Group has been introduced (and even earlier when we are talking about the new engines - we've only got them because Renault threatened to walk away from F1 if smaller ICEs weren't introduced) Red Bull, with Renault whispering in their ears, has been one of the major driving forces behind the new rules. Now, when it's all going wrong for them and they can no longer get away with Newey's secret tweaks, they are crying that it's not fair!

Now, just because McLaren are not having a public slanging match with Honda doesn't mean that the Woking team are apathetic. It doesn't need to air it's grievences in public because the whole world can see the problems for themselves. It also doesn't mean that Ron Dennis isn't having some exceedingly harsh words Mr Honda on a regular basis; he's just doing it out of the public's earshot. And whilst the French might well just give a Gallic shrug over it's dilema, the Japanese will be suffering from a huge amount of loss of face which is far more important to them than anything that you could imagine. Engineers in Japan have committed suicide in the past for lesser failures.

chillibowl · 23 Jun 2015, 17:09 (Ref:3553392)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

McLaren/Honda does not owe any explanations to fans

i watch a lot of sports and absolutely it is common for under performing teams to explain things to its fans and in cases of massive failures even apologize. i would even say it is an expected form of respect...but F1 doesnt respect its fans so why should a team?

you dont get to hide. you stand up there and answer the tough questions honeslty and without equivocation. thats how i was brought up and thats what i respect.

anyways, RB have been putting up with under performing Renaults for longer than Mclaren/Honda partnership...give it another year and if things dont change then we will see how Mclaren react.

Mike, i dont think i am looking at this wrong. just differently than you and others.

im actually not sure why you guys only see two options here...either keep your mouth shut vs slag off your partner.

yes RB are publicly critical of their partner but they are creating an environment where the relevant parties must take RB's threat seriously. in other words they are forcing a greater conversation to be had.

is it a coincidence that many of the major players are now talking about making real changes to F1. did that happen by accident? if everyone just kept their mouths shut like Mclaren would F1 be better off?

Merc is actually talking about allowing engine changes for next year. surely they are smart enough to know that that is a much better thing for f1 and themselves than RB or Renault leaving the sport, surely thats a good thing for Ferrari and Mclaren/Honda...that happens because one team spoke up and thats why speaking up is better than keeping quiet. thats how things change!

maybe i am wrong (i often am) but im also asking different questions and looking for different answers than you guys.

i want my sundays to be more exciting and for that to happen the bigger stakeholders need to be more vocal about their problems so i am going to support them when they do.

Richard C · 23 Jun 2015, 19:31 (Ref:3553431)

I rarely actually go to team websites to see what they say. More often than not I am hearing things from news organizations. So I decided to look and see what McLaren had to say post Austrian GP. I found this...

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015...x-race-report/

It provides details about how things went (including why Jenson had to retire) and that includes comments from both McLaren and Honda. That includes comments in which they acknowledge that things are bad at the moment for both sides of the house and they also mention they expect to bring power updates for Silverstone.

I can't say if their report is typical or not for McLaren or other F1 teams in general, but to me it seems as informative as I would hope to see.

So I do agree that on one end you have zero communication and on the other end open warfare with your engine partner, I don't think McLaren is living at either of those extremes. In short, I don't think McLaren is "keeping their mouth shut". They just look tame in comparison to RBR who is loosing it's mind.

And regarding RBR's strategy of going public, I would assume that there is a wide spectrum of pressure that can be applied privately before taking the step to go public. In short, who is to say that McLaren is not strongly telling Honda to get their act together behind closed doors.

With all of that being said... I am a fan of teams being open and supportive of the fans. I actually praise the openness that Nissan was/is/will promote in WEC. For me it is more about fan access than anything else. I think that for F1 teams that can be a struggle as they generally don't have to cater to the fans as they (until recently) come back no matter how hard and often they are whipped (ticket prices, lack of access, quality of racing, etc.)

Richard

sparkione · 23 Jun 2015, 20:38 (Ref:3553443)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cds_uk

Also, for what it is worth, i think Alonso is shading Button myself.

It's not worth much, chum. Which planet where you from again?

**Adam43** · 23 Jun 2015, 20:49 (Ref:3553449)

A friendly post there!

Paradise City · 24 Jun 2015, 02:40 (Ref:3553509)

Red Bull has developed an iffy car and Renault are not up to par with the engine. Mclaren haven't got a good car either and you'd sooner have a fleet of trained hamsters working hard on a hamster wheels under the bonnet than the current powerplant.

Everyone has cause to look sheepish here. Everyone jeering at the other through the press certainly ain't gonna achieve anything - that's the one thing I know.

As for apologising to the fans? That's a bit weird. It's interesting that they are doing poorly. That's my point of view.

I wouldn't want it to stay that way mind you - but it's interesting to see what they do to get back on par. Will they lose their cool? Can the relationship with Honda even survive? I don't feel personally affronted if a team I like does badly.

I think apologising to the fans is more tied if your nation, county, state is playing or something.

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