DTM vs OZ V8

O'Schumacher · 15 Mar 2002, 23:37 (Ref:236279)

I didn't want to post this on the Aussie touring cars page as I thought I'd get a biased view, but seeing as most of the guys on this page are BTCC fans I thought it'd be more neutral.

Who would win if Bernd Schneider in a DTM Merc took on Mark Skaife in a V8 Holden around Spa?

Would the technologial advances in the C-class give the German the edge, or would the sheer horsepower of a 5 litre V8 send the Holden rocketing up to Les Combes in the lead?

Answers please

Michael H · 16 Mar 2002, 09:08 (Ref:236278)

Very difficult.
I am an Aussie, but like Euro touring cars more than V8Supercars. I would really like to see Skaife quit the Australian scene at the end of this season and enter the DTM with Opel in a good car and team. He has proven enough in Australia. He should go overseas now. Have a go at DTM, ETCC, BTCC.

At Spa? I think it would be even. They are the two best drivers from their respective categories.

marcus · 16 Mar 2002, 09:17 (Ref:236277)

I have not one clue about this.

I really dont know anything about the DTM except the cars look great , but im pretty sure that they are quicker than a V8 supercar , but you never know , I would love to see this match race to see what they both had to offer.

Im a big V8 fan but i really dont know enough about DTm to comment , as far as the drivers go though I reckon both Skaifey and Schnieder and fairly level in talent and would be a good match for each other in the same equipment.

one thing though , just by looking at pictures I think the DTM car would be more efficient aerodynamically , so thats one definate advantage but horsepower ????

I dunno how much does a DTM car have ???

a V8 supercar is pushing out a reported 650 bhp which is very impressive for a sedan type car but I dont know how much a DTM has ?

good debatable topic though and if this was in the V8 forum I think you would be surprised by the responses you get , they are knowledgable in there and also and would treat the q fairly I reckon

Carrie · 16 Mar 2002, 10:08 (Ref:236276)

Just to see what response it does get in the Aussie forum, I'll copy it there as well.
I'd love to be able to comment on the two series, but only having seen the DTM on TV once or twice and never having seen the Aussie V8s, I can't.

SPOONERBORO · 16 Mar 2002, 10:52 (Ref:236293)

I think that the DTM have the better drivers in terms of professionalism and outright speed eg ex gp drivers and world class sportscar men but i cant stand the dtm its just all the same Opel, Merc oh and a couple of Audi's I know V8's have only a couple of manufacturers also but at least the cars look like they are going to crash 85% of the time rather than the f1 glued to the floor style adoprted in dtm

Ray Bell · 16 Mar 2002, 11:44 (Ref:236342)

A lot will boil down to power and most of the rest to wheel widths.

Let's have some specs on the German cars then...

Oh, Marcus, that 650hp is about 100 more than the same sized engines had in F5000.

Big Mac · 16 Mar 2002, 11:52 (Ref:236350)

As unlikely as it is, I think that it would be a bloody cracker of a race! AND I would give my right arm and leg to see the V8 Supercars dancing around Spa and Brans Hatch.

mac · 16 Mar 2002, 11:53 (Ref:236351)

I don't know which would be quickest, but I reckon the V8s would probably give a better show. But then, I haven't seen a lot of DTM, so I cannot really comment.

As far as driving standards go, DTM should have a better class as they have drivers coming from all over the world. However, I think you Euro guys might get a bit of a shock with just how good some of the V8 drivers are.

Big Mac · 16 Mar 2002, 12:39 (Ref:236393)

Right on, I think the rest of the world underrates just how good SOME of our V8 drivers really are. I would be interested in the DTM electronics allowed. (ie. traction control,ABS etc.)

redshoes · 16 Mar 2002, 13:37 (Ref:236447)

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Mac
I would be interested in the DTM electronics allowed. (ie. traction control,ABS etc.)

None. The current DTM incarnation is nothing like the mid-90's version. No traction control, no ABS, no active ride, no nothing.

O'Schumacher · 16 Mar 2002, 17:57 (Ref:236577)

Mac,

I completely agree. Unless we see the Oz V8 drivers against the rest, we just don't know how good they are.

At Bathurst, the cars are more familiar to the aussies, making them appear quicker, but front runners like Paul Radisich have more than made their mark on the Euro series', and with Skaife, Lowndes, Bright, and Tander all usually at a similar level, I'm sure they'd rock the establishment against the DTM regulars.

kmchow · 16 Mar 2002, 18:40 (Ref:236614)

Regarding Marcus's question about how much hp a DTM car has, their 4L engines produce about 550 hp +/- 50hp. I recall reading their hp output is about the same as before, but the engines are not working as hard. Previously, DTM engines were only 2.5L V6s. Now they are 4L V8s if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, it is kinda hard to say, a DTM car has less hp, but also less drag so it could be quite close. But I would bet on the V8 Supercars due it's superior displacement of 5.7L!

StuiE · 17 Mar 2002, 04:19 (Ref:237044)

V8 actually 'only' has 5L u can buy the 5.7 roadcar but it isnt used in racing

calais · 17 Mar 2002, 04:34 (Ref:237049)

i dont know why we are comparing a DTM car to a piece of rubbish like a v8 supercar. this is a car that has an engine based on a 30 year old design, a rear axle set up that is even older, and racing so exciting that it will cure insomnia.
and this is coming from an aussie!!!!!!!!
PS they even like to compare themselves to F1!!!!

StuiE · 17 Mar 2002, 04:40 (Ref:237050)

just about everyone from australia here dosent like V8s, but just watch them cos its about the only motor racing that the 'home of motorsport' gives full coverage of

racer69 · 17 Mar 2002, 07:18 (Ref:237079)

calais & gtr69, you too are spot on, exactly right.

Simon Pullan · 17 Mar 2002, 19:47 (Ref:237743)

I watched the V8 season review on TV here in England and it looked really exciting. Not quite as good as DTM but still very good none the less. They look like they would be a great challenge to drive and their relative simplicity in comparison to a DTM car only adds to their appeal.

As far as drivers go. Marcus Ambrose was very quick over here in single seaters and doesn't walk away at any of the V8 rounds. He is mostly near the front though, so I'm sure that the top V8 guys would give the DTM crew a run for their money.

On a lap of Spa however, the DTM would win hands down. Contrary to what some people may think, the cars have about 450bhp so it may lose out their but the aerodynamics and sheer traction more than make up for it. It would be interesting to see which would be first to Les Combes, but by the time they got to Rivage, the DTM car would be long gone. What does an aussie V8 weigh? The DTM car is feather-weight at 1080Kg and has carbon brakes so I reckon it would be first into Eau Rouge. The superior aero package woyuld see it faster through Eau Rouge, and the traction would mean it could be on the power earlier. Whether the power of the V8 could claw the distance back by the time they got to Les Combes, I don't know. Like I said it would be interesting to see. Another thing is gearing. Are the ratios fixed in V8s? If so then the DTM with its changeble ratios and sequential shift would be ahead all the way round.

I'm guessing here, but I'd say a DTM car would be 5 seconds quicker on a lap of Spa.

Ray Bell · 17 Mar 2002, 22:05 (Ref:237839)

Quote:

Originally posted by Simon Pullan
I watched the V8 season review on TV here in England and it looked really exciting. Not quite as good as DTM but still very good none the less. They look like they would be a great challenge to drive and their relative simplicity in comparison to a DTM car only adds to their appeal.

As far as drivers go. Marcus Ambrose was very quick over here in single seaters and doesn't walk away at any of the V8 rounds. He is mostly near the front though, so I'm sure that the top V8 guys would give the DTM crew a run for their money.

Thanks for that sensible comment, Simon. The V8s do indeed create some intense racing, they are very much a challenge to drive and they have drivers of the first order in them. Those 'knockers' above must be throwbacks to the old 2L v V8 arguments of a few years ago who haven't noticed yet that the whole thing was all about marketing, not racing.

Quote:

On a lap of Spa however, the DTM would win hands down. Contrary to what some people may think, the cars have about 450bhp so it may lose out their but the aerodynamics and sheer traction more than make up for it. It would be interesting to see which would be first to Les Combes, but by the time they got to Rivage, the DTM car would be long gone. What does an aussie V8 weigh? The DTM car is feather-weight at 1080Kg and has carbon brakes so I reckon it would be first into Eau Rouge. The superior aero package would see it faster through Eau Rouge, and the traction would mean it could be on the power earlier. Whether the power of the V8 could claw the distance back by the time they got to Les Combes, I don't know. Like I said it would be interesting to see. Another thing is gearing. Are the ratios fixed in V8s? If so then the DTM with its changeble ratios and sequential shift would be ahead all the way round.

I'm guessing here, but I'd say a DTM car would be 5 seconds quicker on a lap of Spa.

I can't see much benefit in the aero package, myself. And if the shackles were removed from the V8s just a little (remember, they are hobbled to give parity between the makes) then they'd be better still.

Gears are six speed, and I think ratios are changeable, at any rate they are racing boxes by Holinger, though they are H-pattern changes (by regulation)... rear axle ratios are almost infinitely changeable, they all use the 9" Ford centre with the saddle bearing, so many different sprockets that they need a parts book to keep track.

Weight is about 1350kgs if I remember correctly, again the cars are ballasted and that could drop if it were to become a real fight.

Sounds like those M-Bs would be nice and torquey...

philneast · 18 Mar 2002, 00:07 (Ref:237943)

"the whole thing was all about marketing, not racing."

Your are right Ray, the rules were drafted to provide big fields of closely matched cars that resembled common road cars.

The success of the formula should be judged on crowd numbers and number of cars competing.

The first round of the 2002 series at Adelaide they had to prequalify because entries were oversubscibed and they had record crowds, reportedly over 170,000 for the meeting.

racer69 · 18 Mar 2002, 11:48 (Ref:238279)

No doubt the series is successful, but 170,000 is a bit optimistic of AVESCO, but then all their crowd figure's are. And sure the racing is close, but there isn't much passing because of the aero aids, and i prefer multi manufacturers, plus the trend for more street circuits over permanent circuits i don't like either.

Anyway back on topic, it would be tough to have an even race. Put them on Hockenheim the Holden would easily win, put them on the hungaroring and the merc would win