Does Rally Need Reform?

[Liz]

This topic started on the Sports Car forum, so I thought I'd move it over here to see what y'all think. A gentleman called "egor" posted the following:

I agree about your points on the WRC, and i know this is not the right forum for my thoughts on this but here they are.

The FIA are trying to make rallying(WRC) as popular as FORMULA 1. In the UK the Lombard RAC Rally as it was called for a long time drew more spectators than formula 1 could dream about, with no real spectator problems as such and congestion no way near as bad as it is now.

This is not only a problem in the UK but even worse in europe with non competition cars being left on the side of the stages, and people hanging off every vantage point they can find.

The cause of this i believe is the fact of the FIA wanting easily managed packages for them selves to make as much money as possible, in as short a time as possible.

Obviuosly by cutting the number of stages or the number of total stage and road miles is better for the teams, but who is the customer here the fans.

And by doing such things, the fans who want to watch the WRC are forced to go to less stages and any person worth there salt will know that all these people who were spread over 10 stages (a few years ago)are now spread over three, and as is more common now stages get cancelled due to safety reasons because of the amount of spectators.

The FIA need a good kick up the if you ask me and sort there act out ounce and for all.

============

The problems he mentions are the same ones I have seen, and I'd add to that the terrifying sight of Tommi's car catapaulting over the spectators to crash mere meters away in a cloud of shrapnel and dust... and the Sainz crash in Spain that could easily have caused havoc, too. Does Rally need reform in the way it handles spectators, cars and safety generally? Is there any way it can be done without (as egor points out above) destroying the whole ambience of Rally? Or is this a branch of the sport that should simply be run without spectators on the stages at all?

[Lee Janotta]

My primary beef with WRC is the WRC class itself. I think Tommi's crashes especially in the past few seasons show the cars are getting too damn fast. We're almost up the speeds of Group B again, and while spectacular, it was way too damn fast. Drivers need a certain safety cushion in which to react to any unforseen hazards or unexpected unsettling of the cars. The price of errors in rallying is _much_ higher than in circuit racing, and so there is definitly a foundation of reaction time allowed to the drivers to maintain safety. We don't need to slow down the cars drastically, I thought Group A was perfect. Plus it put all those extremely cool homologation models on the street!

Now, onto the stages... The current movement towards shrinking down the events is typical Mosely-think. Commericialise the product, make it sponsor-friendly, try to control every element, and then promote the hell out of it until everyone's sick. Gah...

We definitly need some extra controls on the stages, such as a safety car running the course just before the rally's start to get parked cars off the stages... Those are an accident waiting to happen. Some education of the spectators through prior broadcasts and more sign postings could help, trying to pass on some common sense. Don't stand right at the turn-in point to a corner, for instance... If the car can't make the corner, you're going to get flattened. Such was the problem in England last year; a lack of sense.

Stretching the rally out over more stages could help, spreading out the crowds a bit more. But really, they want to see as much of the top competitors as they can, so I don't know how much it will help. But it'll improve the sporting aspect greatly.

All this being said, when the chips are down, rally fans are some of the best in the world. I'm sure there are drivers/co-drivers who feel they owe their lives to the help of fans. They're your only source of help out on those stages, miles away from service, and on the whole they do a fantastic job.

[AndyF]

IMO - some excellent points raised here. I think spectators should be encouraged to spectate at just a couple of the safest stages (e.g. super specials in Stadiums etc), and therefore try and reduce the number of spectators on the longer, faster stages. I suppose it depends on which rally you are talking about - some of those outside Europe (e.g. Safari) probably don't have such problems.

[SJ Spode]

As we all know the fundamental problem is that rallying is not F1, and as the interest via TV increases then more people will want to get out and see the action.

This is now leading to increased crowd problems in stages and congestion around stage areas. One solution would be to go back to the times when rallies were 5 day events that covered larger areas, so allowing people to visit their 'local' stages, and for TV purposes I can't see it costing that much more to fly crews to stages by chopper (and anyway TV can afford it).

But if they don't want to do that, what are the alternatives? the idea of keeping spectators away from stages will not work (unless they run the stages on former military bases with fences, razor wire etc), as you cannot police open countryside effectively enough.

The other alternative is to turn rallying into a timed version of rallycross with the super special concept, although you'll need much bigger stadiums and courses with the opportunity for many variants.

As I think I've mentioned before in earlier threads one alternative would be to dig up the Nurburgring Nordschlieffe circuit and then you'd have 12-13 mile superspecials; and to build the same in other countries. I suppose the tarmac events could run at the GP circuits.

The final alternative is to schedule all the rallies in places where people will find it tough to attend (Siberia, Middle East etc) so you can wave bye-bye to the European rounds.

There's no easy answers, but I hope that the powers that be don't wreck the world's best motorsport in an attempt to package it. Otherwise the drivers might as well run the stages on the PS2 simulators and we'll all watch it on Virtual Spectator

[StuiE]

about that spectator thing, why dont the organisers just yet the areas taped off from the crowds? (to tell them the limits, not as a hard barrier)

i havnt been to one of the country stages since i was 5 (go cruising to the SSS instead), so i dont know what its like here, but no stages being cancelled due to large crowds has never been a problem, though probably more down to the fact that there isnt that many people at the country stages)

[imull]

Lee, If you look at the records, teh modern WRC cars actual are quicker overall than the Gp B cars were. Although they are not neccessarily quicker in a straight line. modern cars can carry far higher speeds through the corners due to active transmissions.

Gp B cars rely on "power pulling" to get through the corners.

the problems that the WRC are going through are that the MSA are trying to crush 1.5million people (I think that is roughly the number that used to watch teh RAC) into a few miles of forest. This year they are only using a few stages used more than once (I think it is seven in all). That is the problem.

They should revert to teh old style routes. Test the drivers a bit, stop pampering burns and make him earn his millions. they then have all of their "Mikey mouse" staes on Friday and then in to the forests proper on Sat/Sun. This would solve all of the congestion and crowding problems again. Surely the companies involved in filming the event have enough cameras to put out into the forests, coupled with the multiple cameras on board we should be sorted...

[imull]

if someone can tell me how to post a picture, I will put up a picture that I found on a forum somewhere that shows the other major problem...

[racer69]

I think part of the problem with all the crashes at the moment is all the evnts have been turned into sprints, drivers have to pretty much go 100% for the whole event. In the past you could take it easy over a few stages and still have a chance of victory.

As for the cars, i think the only problem is the need that for them to compete in the WRC to be hologated is silly, though that is a bit off topic.

[DNQ]

racer69, yes, very valid point about the rally stages being reduced to sprinting, and definantly something that has turned the sport from a 'save the car' approach, to a hell for leather, 110% event...

[imull]

I agree with racer69.

With sprint style stages of modern rallies and full pace notes accidents are always going to be big. They used to use maps so speeds were lower due to the uncertainties.

[Hammerwerfer]

Rally should go back to the way it was in the 80s with long stages, spread out over four days and get away from the compact format and repeated stages of today.

At least 100 cars should be allowed compete and the WRC cars should be replaced with a cheaper alternative. I know that David Richards was opposed to privateers having acess to the same machinery as the stars, but that was what made rallying great. Occasionally a privateer came along who proved himself, but most of the time the similarity in equipment served to showcase the skills of the lads at the top.

I was lucky enough to drive in one World Championship event years back and it was an experience I will never forget. How many will get a chance to drive in a WRC event now?

A sensible blend of Group N and A regulations would make a class that would be both affordable and exciting. Longer rallies would spread the crowds out and a bigger field might help keep the crowds at the same vantage point longer and reduce the traffic on the roads.

[Bob Irvine]

Good point Hammerwerfer,although i dont think replacing WRC cars is the way forward.I do believe however that we need new man at the top.Lets face it Mosely would much rather be sunning himself in a cosy pitlane than trekking into a forest.As for DR,well i feel apart from insisting on miles of ticker tape in the stages what has he really done for the sport.He would do well to remember that rallying is first and foremost a competitor sport.How dare he suggest clubmen have no place on WRC events,and as for tv,i would be more than happy to have no Rallying o n the box at all,if it meant a return to the past when rallying wasnt used as a vehicle to line peoples pockets.Got to stop as the wifes telling me to calm down.........

[JAG]

I think people need to get in the real world when talking about the WRC.

The WRC, in all aspects, has improved beyond recognition in the last 5 years.

We have more manufactuers, better quality privateer teams and a proper structure to ralling.

First of all safety. I think 2003 has shown that the WRC has got its act together with regards to spectator safety. Stages are now cancelled if there is any risk of danger. If rallies cannot run a safe event, (Argentina), they risk being thrown out of the WRC.

The future for WRC spectators, as is being started by the Network Q, is to have all ticket events and eventually purpose built areas were spectators can stand in 100% safety.

As for the cars themselves, everybody knows WRCs are expensive to buy (altough the actuall World Championshio is cheaperthan in the past due to new service rules etc.) they are the best compromise between road based cars and prototypes that do not require manufactuers to build homologation specials. Plus the cars performance is capped by the WRC regulations with strict limits on all apsects of the car, including the 34mm engine restrictor. The problem with Group B was that there were no limits on the cars and they turned into dragsters that were basically very ill handling and unpredictable.

The new WRC2 class will be introduced sometime in 2004 and will be a much cheaper version of WRCs (to buy and especially to run). These cars will be a kind of return to Group A as they will have the technology levels of the old Group A cars. These cars will be ideal for privateers who have stepped up from S1600 and importantly these cars will be the top class in regional championships such as the European and Asia Pacific series. Costs will be cut, more drivers will have equal machinery and the quality of drivers competing will increase.

As for small privateers not being able to compete on WRC round, would you expect F3 teams to be able to compete in there local GPeach year? The revitalised European Championship will provide an international arena for smaller privateers to compete in.

With regards to the length of rallies the days of the 5 day long rallies are long gone and if this is the kind of rallying you pine for there is a ready made replacement, the FIA Cross Country Championshop such as the Paris Daker Rally.

[Bob Irvine]

You raised a lot of valid points jag,but i cant accept this F3 scenario or as DR puts it"teams in the football league dont get to play at wembley every week".do we really have to change the sport like this just to suit tv needs(never mind the clubman-they dont even film all the works teams).The fact that joe bloggs can compete against Gronholm ect is what makes this sport unique,the bottom line is we dont HAVE to change it.

[JAG]

Wouldn't it be better to get the Euro and Asia Pacific series back to how good they used to be. With WRC2 cars more competitors can be competitive.

You can have top class international events without affecting the wrc.

[Lee Janotta]

JAG, I'm sorry, but most everything you're pointing at as an improvement turns my stomach!

The "better quality privateer teams" never make a blip on the radar.

Cancelling stages if there's any risk of danger? Don't make me bust a gut laughing! Rallying is the most insanely dangerous form of 4-wheeled motorsport I can think of!

Tossing rallies off the schedule? Yeah, _that's_ productive.

All-ticket events with spectators fenced in litle cattle? You might as well go to a circuit race!

The WRC2 class is a joke that no one will build cars to. It's a non-starter, plain and simple.

Teams _should_ compete in their local events, and do fairly well! Look at motorcycle racing. Wildcards are tremendously exciting to watch!

WRC has gotten a lot more popular because the coverage and promotion has picked up tremendously, in my opinion. Dave Richards has done for WRC what Bernie did for F1: Brought in a lot of works efforts, got good TV deals, but ruined much of the competition and made it astronomically expensive to compete. I don't see a _good_ reason why we have to give up one to have the other.

[Remus]

I wish the TV coverage would at least acknowledge the achievements of the 'privateers' on the WRC. No doubt Gabriel Raies finishing 10th last week could have been portrayed as a romantic sporting story, but I didn't see him mentioned in the coverage. The fact that different names crop up around the world adds to the unique feel of each country's event. The madia seem to ignore some of the romance of the sport, choosing to focus on the same old drivers in the same old cars. Commercial driven reality again. However, I feel they are really missing a trick when the more senior drivers either get a result or simply take part. The return of Auriol (Champion in 93 or there about) appears to have been completely by-passed by C4, and Kankkunen and Salonen ('85 and '86 etc) have competed without any mantion at all on occasions. Can you imagine the fuss if say Piquet, Prost or Hill turned up to qualify for a GP! Surely this kind of story will capture the imagination of the wider public, who C4 at least must be aiming for with their dumbed down service. A minor point I know, but I think rallying needs this kind of link with it's history to maintain it's identity.
Personally I love the idea of clubmen competing on the same stage as those at the very top of the sport. No where else in world class competition can I think of where this is possible.

On a slightly different point, it amazes me that the RAC gets away without more road traffic carnage each year. I am as guilty as anyone else of chasing stages throughout the day, but if today someone came up with the idea of creating an event which was likely to encourage some of the quickest point to point road cars in Britain to gather in such a small area and get to the same spot before each other... can you imagine the reaction it would recieve. Did such a huge percentage of fans turn up in road based rally cars 10 years ago as they do to today's Suburishi owners meeting? Despite my views on the modern WRC, I love the RAC weekend as much as any other throughout the year, but I do wonder if we are living on borrowed time. Perhaps spreading the rally around would reduce the risk and avert a potentially critical commercial/environmental backlash? Surely that is a stronger argument against single service venues than keeping them because they provide fully wired media facilities...

[JAG]

In 2002 didn't the organisers put in place a system were you had tickets that were eligible for 2 or 3 stages only. This way certain spectators were kept together and moved on in a calm and controlled way to the next stage (not necesarilly the next stage in the rally) This way ALL the spectators were not rushing to every single stage, chasing the cars around.

Apparantly in the coming years there will be purpose built spectator areas with facilities such as TV screens, grandstands and the like so fans can stick around in 'comfort' ready for the second running of the stage rather than chasing the cars.

[Remus]

Not sure I would describe the transfers as calm and controlled... Part of the fun for quite a few people is dashing around a small part of Wales very quickly. Many people were still leaving after the first fifteen cars, dashing to stages, service or even to pick up tickets... Yes the ticket system solved some problems (and created others), but getting to three stages in a day is hectic; and fun. Wherever the route goes many will still do this, but if the rally ventured further afield then it must spread things out a bit.
The police and organisers do their best, but the geography of the stage route encourages potentially dangerous road conditions. I am neither a lunatic nor a miserable prophet of doom, but every year I think about this as we zip around South Wales.

Do I really want to watch rallying from the comfort of a forest armchair? Part of the appeal is the setting and adventurous nature of being a spectator. I enjoy using OS maps and the like; sad I know, but true. Please dont take this away, just make it sensible by allowing me and thousands of others to watch safely by creating more stages and various service points.

[JAG]

I read in Autosport that the FIA/Organisers are prepared to allow stages to be spread further afield to avoid conjestion (for spectators and competitors).

There would still be one service park but stages spread further afield. Could be a part of the solution.

[rdjones]

As I have said before and no doubt will say again, WRC events today are made for TV. Can we please go back to the old days when Rally's lasted 5 days, had 50 odd stages and took place all over the country i.e The RAC (Wales, Kilder, The Lakes, Scotland and Yorkshire).

[DavidStHubbins]

I am torn between Jag's argument AND rdjones' too.

What I do not want to happen is WRC getting more like F1 though...

[Hammerwerfer]

With running stages twice you might as well be circuit racing. If absolutely neccessary, they should run them say on the first day and the last or something like that. The reason that some of the crashes are so spectacular is that the drivers are not holding back as they are too familiar with the stages now. Carlos Sainz is on record objecting to this state of affairs.

The beauty of rally is the variety of the stages, and the drivers' skills in reading and adapting to the various conditions.

Make the stages longer, the rally longer, longer transits, varied surfaces, cheaper cars, just like the good old days. More stages with less recce. Spend another day rallying instead.

The world already has F1 for the mega rich. Leave rally for the rest of us.

[racer69]

Originally posted by Bob Irvine
You raised a lot of valid points jag,but i cant accept this F3 scenario or as DR puts it"teams in the football league dont get to play at wembley every week".do we really have to change the sport like this just to suit tv needs(never mind the clubman-they dont even film all the works teams).The fact that joe bloggs can compete against Gronholm ect is what makes this sport unique,the bottom line is we dont HAVE to change it.

I agree, one of the great things and most appealing about rallying to both competitors and the fans over the years has been that it allows all types of drivers to compete on events. Surely we don't want rallying to lose this appeal.

[Hammerwerfer]

Jag,

I have to disagree with many of your points but especially with the bit about the spectators being corralled in specially built areas. That is ridiculous and destroys the very essence of rally spectating. The map reading, navigation, and long hike into the woods for that special vantage point, etc. There are enough stadium sports and certainly enough circuit racing for any fan. Rally is different and must keep its individuality. Do we want the F1 crowd?

Who cares how many manufacturers are involved if their cars bear no resemblence to the cars we can buy? That was the beauty of the homoloation rules! We would all get a shot at the 5000 homolgation specials. Think of what our world would be like if there was never a WRX, Evo, Cossie, Integrale, and the like. If the current rules were in place 10 and 15 years ago none of these would exist! The Citroen Xsara, Peugeot, Skoda, Hyundai, Ford Focus and the like that you and I can buy have absolutely nothing to do with their WRC brethren. And Subaru and Mitsubishi have to play that game as well. The world will be a poorer place for enthusiasts without the pukka homolgation specials.