Why wasn't Monaco 84 restarted?

[Yoong Montoya]

Surely they could have waited half an hour before deciding whether to declare the result as it was, or whether to run the rest of the race and declare the result by aggregate times. I understand that the conditions were becoming too dangerous by the time the race was stopped, but why was no restart undertaken does anyone know?

[kristof14]

i'll rephrase your question for you, it should read,

Why wasn't Monaco '84 restarted.

if your titles made sense you'd get more replies.

[Wrex]

I have adjusted the title

Gee Yoong Montoya, your in trouble when a Russian is picking you up on English grammer.

[f1manoz]

IMO it was just far too wet and the rain never decreased in intensity so a restart was basically out of the question and would have been far too dangerous to bunch all the cars up.

[kristof14]

i aint russian! it's all just a facade!

[Lee Janotta]

My brain says simple bad judgement on the part of the stewards. My heart says it was an pro-european conspiracy which continues to this day (ie Montoya's penalty at Sepang). The truth is probably somewhere in between.

[Peter Mallett]

Easy one this. The rules state that a Grand Prix may either run 200 miles or two hours whichever is the earlier. The race had either reached it's two-hour mark or was near it and the flag was shown. If I recall there was a possibility that it hadn't quite gone the two hours but any meaningful running would have been only one or two laps.

[El_Gibleto]

A cynical view, but a french driver was leading! and was been caught very rapidly by Senna, who would have caught Prost within the next 2 laps.

[Peter Mallett]

There was that accusation and I believe Jackie Icks (a Belgian) was castigated for it. He was C o W. Nevertheless the rules were not broken as I recall. Perhaps someone from the Historic Racing Forum can elucidate?

BTW. Another three laps and Bellof would have taken them both!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
There was that accusation and I believe Jackie Icks (a Belgian) was castigated for it. He was C o W. Nevertheless the rules were not broken as I recall. Perhaps someone from the Historic Racing Forum can elucidate?

BTW. Another three laps and Bellof would have taken them both!!!

*Ahem*. I mean C o T C.

[freud]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

BTW. Another three laps and Bellof would have taken them both!!!

Yes! I am glad you brought that up. That was an incredible drive by Stefan Bellof.

[Peter Mallett]

Now. In terms of our other "greats" there was the benchmark for a rookie F1 driver. He was driving a Tyrrell clearly outclassed by its more sophisticated competition and was just blowing everybody's doors off!!!

A very sad loss. The Porsche 956 has a lot to answer for.

[Carla O]

Originally posted by El_Gibleto
A cynical view, but a french driver was leading! and was been caught very rapidly by Senna, who would have caught Prost within the next 2 laps.

I bet Prost regrets that decision, because of his half point win he lost that Championship!

A full pointed second would have been better for him! heehee

And i don't think they wanted to let a rookie called Senna even risking winning a race in the first Season... Rolled on Estoril 95

[Peter Mallett]

Actually I should also point out the Senna was driving an outclassed Toleman so he was also justifying his reputaion. It's just that Bellof was doing so much better.

[racer69]

If you look at it from the view that Ickx stopped the race on purpose, then there is evidence to support this. He was a factory Porsche driver etc... he was a great wet weather driver so why would he stop a race due to bad weather etc.... and so on, plus the fact it was stopped on lap 31 of 76, wouldn't it have made sense to carry on to half distance (lap 38) and be awarded full points.

I've got the race on video and from what i can see the rain was no heavier when the race was stopped than when it started. Prost may have also been worried about being beaten by rookies as well, as he only started waving about a lap beforehand when Senna and Bellof were closing, and notice how Prost stops at the pit exit when the red flag comes out, he may have had a bit of warning?

Bottom line, the race shouldn't have been stopped, and seeing as it was it should have been started. There were only 9 cars left when it was stopped on lap 31 of 76, so there wouldn't have been too many cars bunched together for a long period of time. We were deprived of a great battle.

As for Mansell earlier in the race, was that the start of the whinging. A white line

[Peter Mallett]

I know about the distance but what about the length of time. Hadn't it got to the 2 hours mark? Help me out here somebody.

Yeah, I forgot about Mansell. He took another year to get his first win, but wasn't that a controversial race?

[zealot]

No, it was well short of the 2 hour mark. Official time of the race was 1 hour, 1 minute, 7 seconds, plus some change.

[zealot]

Now that I think about it, was that the reason the race was stopped when it was? I think the race had to go either half-distance or half-time to count as a race, even for half points. That's why Prost knew when the race was going to end, it was the end of his first lap after the 1 hour half-time mark.

On a seperate note, grandprix.com has Bellof listed as being disqualified in the final standings. Is that official, and if it is, why was he DQ'd.

[TimD]

Bellof, Brundle and Johansson all got disqualified by the FIA from the entire season's results because of alleged cheating by the Tyrrell team.

The rules allowed for replenishment of fluids on cars that year, and Tyrrell figured out that it was legitimately within the regulations to run underweight and take on water before the car crossed the finish line.

The rules, as I say, allowed for this.

At the time, Tyrrell was holding out against the FIA over some point in the Concorde Agreement - I forget precisely what - possibly something about being allowed to continue running normally-aspirated engines. He got himself disqualified because someone analysed his water tanks, and decided that because you couldn't nail water down, it represented movable ballast, and the fact that there were particles of foreign bodies in the liquid - iron filings or a ball bearing, I think - it was therefore specially treated water that must be giving some sort of performance enhancement.

So Ken and the squad were bulldozed out of the championship that year, couldn't vote on the Concorde Agreement changes, and the FIA got its way.

And they say Formula 1 has only started to stink recently....

[racer69]

Originally posted by zealot
Now that I think about it, was that the reason the race was stopped when it was? I think the race had to go either half-distance or half-time to count as a race, even for half points. That's why Prost knew when the race was going to end, it was the end of his first lap after the 1 hour half-time mark.

That could be right. However, at Australia 1991, the race was stopped after 14 laps and half points were awarded. I don't think that race lasted one hour, but i could be wrong, does anyone have an official race time for the 1991 Australian GP.

[Lee Janotta]

Very true, TimD. It may be that the FISA called the race because the threat of Bellof's old Cosworth-powered Tyrrel beating all the high-tech turbo cars! No one can legitimately dispute the fact that the FISA had it in for Ken at that point in history.

[Peter Mallett]

This is developing beyond the original question so we now have three things to think about.

1. Was it the small amount of iron/metal in the water? This is quite natural in many countries. BTW. Wasn't the water there to cool the brakes?

2. Was it the moveable ballast in the Tyrrel fuel tank at a previous race? The FIA deemed that to be a performance enhancer.

3. Does/did the rule allow for half time.

4. (Did I Say three?) The race at Adelaide was stopped so early because there were too many cars in the wall and the final straw was Senna doing a "jaws" on the back of Brundle's Bennetton (?) just after Mansell had departed the scene for the lead (I think).

[zealot]

Per Australia '91, the official time was 24 minutes and 30-some seconds. I think part of the reason for cutting that race so short and calling it official was it was the last race of the year and Senna had already sealed the title, as had the McLarens for the constructors.

As for the Tyrrel's in '84, I had forgotten that they had been disallowed for the year. But from what I remember, the DQ was totally called for. Ken had come up with the idea of having water spray on the brakes to "cool" them. Of course, this was just a reason to jettison the water from the car, therefore making it lighter as the race progressed. In addition, the FIA found ball bearings mysteriously floating around the water tanks, which was probably being used as moveable ballast.

[TimD]

That's the thing, Zealot. It wasn't against the regulations to let your car get underweight during the race. Just as long as you topped up with an extra pitstop before the chequered flag.

And while the FIA cited the ball bearings, or iron filings, or whatever they were, as just cause for a ban, their presence was likely as not accidental, their influence on the car would be miniscule.

I'm afraid that if these alleged infringements had not been cited, they would have found something else, like a retrospective rule banning all teams beginning with the letter "T" running circular tyres or something.

The important thing to remember is that whenever a sneaky designer came up with something radical that fitted the rules, be it the Brabham fan car, the Lotus "twin chassis", iced fuel or even skirts, the procedure was to ban their further use. In Ken's case, they closed up the regulations, then accused him of cheating and disqualified him retrospectively.

[Jonny Apex]

No no no! Adelaide 91 was stopped with Senna leading. It was 89 when he rammed Brundle. The 91 race, Senna led Mansell who after about he 15th lap went off into a wall exiting the first corner, a chicane (and, typically, feigned injury in the car - he'd bruised a finger). The race stopped because even Senna was pointing skywards telling them to stop it. It was getting ridiculous. Nothing wrong with a bit of acquaplaning but this was eight or nine inches deep in places. People were just going off in all directions. So they waited. And waited. And waited some more. But the rain persisted so they chequered it, much to the boos of the crowds in the stands opposite the pitlane.

Monaco 84. It got nowhere near the 2 hour mark. Senna and Bellof both drove like the gods they were, tearing through blind spray from the back of the grid. Up front, Mansell had led but, pulling away by almost four seconds on some laps, lost it going up to Casino Square and smacked the barriers. He got as far as Mirabeau before his Lotus, smashed in at the back, spun round. Then he blamed a strip of paint, a white line, for getting in the way. You know, the old banana skin. Well, it had been the same for everyone and, on the replay, he actually doesn't clip the white line.

It all came to an acrimonious end. As Senna prepared to move in on Prost, out came the red flags. Prost brought it to a halt at the start/finish line but, as he slowed, Senna kept his foot planted and drove past, actually crossing the line ahead of Prost. The result, of course, was taken back a lap. Never was their a stonier face than Senna's that day. Bellof, at the time, was closing on both, his normally-aspirated Tyrrell perfectly matched to the conditions and the driver himself a megastar in the making.

We were all robbed of a great battle, but for no reason other than ... Ickx was old by Balestre - then FIA President and eager to see France have a world champion - to red flag it. This, of course, was the conspiracy theory, one which went on right until Balestre was booted out in favour of Mosley. That's if it's true ...