Communication

[Mark Mitchell]

Some Circuits use fixed landlines to communicate with/from Race Control, others use radio's.
Which is best.....and why?

[jase]

Depends on the situation. Most regular comms traffic can be radio'd, but there are times when telephones are more "prudent"

[JimW]

Can I record a vote for "Neither and both" please?

Let me explain. I think that we agree that, sad as it is, we cannot always guarantee having trained communications users as observers in every case. (We often have to run with less experienced marshals “acting up”). Having untrained users on a telephone works, having them on radios is a recipe for a shambles.

But, many people find it advantageous to be able to hear what others are saying so that they can be warned or, better, not chip in and be the tenth person reporting that trailing exhaust. This can be delivered with either radio (provided it is not two channel, when you will need your scanner) or some setups of landline (e.g. Loton Park).

Landline with fixed instruments ties people to a single place. This is bad for post management and does not allow the observer to get about and manage his team spread out over the post’s area of activity.

Rockingham has telephones with the advantage of DECT technology, i.e. cordless phones for the observers. Good stuff and I like that. Those who are really keen on being able to hear what others are saying won’t like that system. But then they probably want their scanner for the admin channel anyway.

Just my twopennorth.

Regards

Jim

[Beardy359]

The problem with radios is that the spectators usually know more than the marshals, as they are using scanners (marshals of course never do!) However if you are referring to the old "dial" phones, such as they use to use at Thruxton then radios are much better.The Observer no longer needs to disapper into the hut to phone in and situations can be kept under observation whilst still being in communication with Race Control.This assumes you can get radio reception! I sometimes do test sessions at Thruxton where you often have one person per post, without a radio you would have to leave your post just at the very moment you should be doing three other things!

I have heard major incidents being dealt with very well using mobile phones for the more delicate messages and this may be a way forward.

[Mark Mitchell]

Good Points James......
I keep hearing mutterings that we Observers don't get out of the box and talk to the "Team".
On my part, it's not that I don't want to, but as you rightly say - a fixed-point telephone like at Donington/Oulton etc means that you have to stay close to the telephone.
Some reporting is best on the phone, as this does not "Tie Up" the airwaves for other users.
I find radio's to be advantageous at times when (for example) the Black & Yellow is called for. Flag marshals can then be warned about this and the "Neutral" part of a race is put into action fairly quickly rather than ad-hoc B/Y's because the flag marshal is not paying attention/asleep/observing as well (Donington then!)

[EvilPumpkin]

Since we only have a radio option at Mondello, it might seem strange that I voted for telephones. I experienced (in terms of watching someone else use) the telephone system at Brands and it seemed to me to be a big improvement.

My biggest issue with radios is that you can only have one person speaking at a time. In the event that you have a "normal" report going in (car stopped or whatever), you are then unable to get a priority message in from another post with a serious problem.

The mobility would be an issue here since we don't have the observer function and anyone on a post is probably going to have to attend an incident - but as Jim pointed out, DECT and other mobile technologies more or less negate that problem.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by JimW
Can I record a vote for "Neither and both" please?

I thing it all depends on what type of motorsport is taking place and who uses the comms.

For Hillclimbs etc, I prefer radios (as an I/O) as it means that I can speak from where I am, ie on top of the incident, rather than trying to run and describe an incident from some distance. Also, I am able to monitor other post's comments and may be forewarned of something.

My experiences on circuits are much fewer but I did find the open land-line system used for CART to be very efficient. No waiting for an answer from control and no unnescessary repetitions, just confirmations.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go, just what is the best for the situation.

[sss]

i think the mixture you get at some circuits is fine,
i prefer the radio as i can wander around my corner and am not limited to one place,also if im needed trackside for any reason i can go and make my own assesment of a situation, some phones arnt in the best place, sears at snet springs readily to mind. but then i do use the phone for the less important messages such as recoveries etc.
also we give flaggies recieve only sets (scanners really) to listen to race control so that they can hear what is going on and i dont have to rely on them to see me give the race stoppage signal, (and before anyone mentions rogue red flags, not a problem when you have trustworthy flaggies). also with a radio, everyone knows what is going on be they in a vehicle or trackside.

[Woolley]

The big advantage of landlines and radios is that the best way to learn how to do it properly is to listen to others doing it right (or wrong!) and the communication is instant. I was highly unimpressed by the Rockingham dial up system when it took a lap and a half to get yellows out for Darren Turner's turn 2 crash (with the leaders racing through the scene), whereas a champ car shunt at the same spot was yellowed in under 6 seconds. I honestly believe that you cannot have too much information, and you certainly can't it too quickly.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Woolley
I honestly believe that you cannot have too much information, and you certainly can't it too quickly.

care to repeat that in English please Woolley?

[Stuart Hill]

or even "Tree-Speak" then Harry can translate for me!!

[Woolley]

The missing word was "have". I'll let you decide where to put it! Having trouble with Personal Confuser and Trypewriter as usual.

[2CV Racer]

Neither and both would be my vote too if I could have it.

The best system I've ever used is in Road Atlanta where they have a landline system. The difference to what is described by others above, where the link is a point to point one between the post and control, is that the lines are an open network where everyone can talk (if they switch their mike on) and hear at once. I'm not advocating everyone talking at once, but the problem we have with 2 radios drowning each other out doesn't exist.

Advantages are:
- duplicated messages in both directions are eliminated
- if you need to call priority when someone else is giving a mundane message you can actually get that through
- no snooping as it's not a radio network

[sss]

what is wrong with snooping? afterall there isnt a need to send secretive messages to race control, well i have yet to find a reason to anyway

and

with good RT procedure you dont get a major problem with radios drowning each other out.

[Woolley]

2cv, you'll find many here who agree with you. First experience of it at Rockingham last year, and I'm converted.

[2CV Racer]

sss, I don't have a major problem with snooping in general but can think of some situations where you don't want more people knowing certain information than is necessary - eg a serious injury or fatality where you want to find the next of kin (who may be in the paddock or wherever) and have the situation explained to them by a doctor or senior official rather than someone else who happens to have a scanner.

If you have posts remote from each other they may not be able to hear each others transmissions and this can lead to both trying to jump in at the same time on occasion.

Good RT procedures can do a lot (it's a particular focus of some training we'll be doing over the next few weeks as it happens) but unfortunately we don't always get all the operators working to the same high level. At least when someone isn't listening properly to what is going on, with a landline they can't drown out a critical message through their lack of professionalism.

[sss]

i agree that you dont want relatives listening to a message about a fatality, but that sort of information is not needed to be sent, we have had many over the years unfortunately and at no time was that information needed to be sent 'over the air' so the radios are not a problem,

snetterton is one circuit where we have big problems about hearing radio tansmissions, when im at sears i cant hear anything further than the esses, but its not a problem, lets face it good RT procedure is not rocket science. and im not the brightest tool in the box. so i would hope that there were no corner commanders/IO etc that could manage to not use them properly, if they couldnt i would need to make a desicion about there suitability

[Peter Harding]

I usually prefer to use the telephone when I'm observing as I know I can get connected immediately and wont get confused if 2 incidents are being dealt with at different locations, but as a Snetterton regular the Obs has a lot of area to cover including 2 flag posts. My team have 4 radios on a different frequecy just for our team and use them to keep Obs informed and then relay via phone. Works the other way when they change some instruction at the last moment.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by 2CV Racer


At least when someone isn't listening properly to what is going on, with a landline they can't drown out a critical message through their lack of professionalism.

I think it's important to note that it's not always lack of professionalism that can cause this. Incorrect and poorly charged equipment, water damage and loud traffic can all lead to people not being able to hear what's going on.

This can be seen from the amount of people last year who actually went out and paid for their own earpieces/fist mikes because they were never able to hear what was going on - and one or two had made inappropriate radio calls, simply because they were unaware that there was anything going on.

The last radio I had, had no fist mike and the spare I had didn't fit it. This meant I had to wear the radio clipped to my collar and even then, at full volume, I had great difficulty hearing everything that was going on. When that battery on the radio failed, I was given another one - this one didn't even have a clip, so I was left with the radio in my top pocket. The pocket cancelled out even more of the transmission, so I just had to hope like hell I wasn't missing anything important.

Radio Procedures are a great idea and much needed - but I think we also need to be addressing the issue of the standard of equipment we're receiving.

[sss]

one problem with radios and headsets is that different people prefer different types of headset as they obviously have different shape heads, so what our club director did, was said to all the relevant people, go and buy a headset that suits you (within reason obviously) and we will refund you.
i personally dont wear a headset as i like my marshals to hear what is going on, and i use radios in my day job so am acustomed to hear them whilst talking or in a noisy enviroment
the only time i do is when its raining and need to keep it dry.

[Piglet]

Originally posted by sss
i personally dont wear a headset as i like my marshals to hear what is going on, and i use radios in my day job so am acustomed to hear them whilst talking or in a noisy enviroment
the only time i do is when its raining and need to keep it dry.

If you're imposing this on your marshals you're at great risk of a negligence claim from someone at some point in the future. Not using any form of ear protection in a motorsport environment is storing up problems for the future. I'd like to see the MSA stipulate a minimum standard for ear protection/enclosed radio headsets in the blue book so that clubs etc. are responsible for issuing the appropriate safety equipment. And please don't say that we're volunteers so it doesn't count!

As EP says it is very difficult to hear a radio without a proper headset and that is often why people don't listen to their radio properly so when they need to make a call they just pick it up and jump in without realising that they are cutting over someone else. Last weekend I was in the pit lane with a radio with no headset and only realised that I was being called on the radio by someone waving their own radio at me!

[sss]

but why impose a minimum ear protection upon people, a club should provide protection but down to personal choice to use?
as to the jumping in with a radio transmision, its back to suitable training issue.

[EvilPumpkin]

I'm always very wary when someone says that a safety rule should be put in - because we need to be very clear on who is expected to pay for it. There was a suggestion last year that protective head gear was going to be brought in for marshals - and who was expected to pay for it? The marshals.

[blueflagger]

With 23 years of experience as a communicator on station and in control, I can say they both have advantages depending on the situation. Overall though, I prefer open landlines (we don't 'phone up control' on the west shore) for their overall efficience and reliability.

Pros of radios:
You aren't attached to a tether. Great when you are short-handed.
Easy to swap out with another one if there is a problem.
Easy to move if the station gets relocated.
A club can use them for both circuits and rallies to get their money's worth.
We can use scanners for training new workers.

Cons of Radios:
Spectators can listen in. As Yankee spectators have become more educated, this has become less of a problem. Besides we never discuss fatalities over the phones here anyway. We use code words instead.
Batteries fail at the worst times possible.
Two people can't talk at once - one time we had a station calling an emergency and control couldn't hear them because control had their mike keyed.
Must stay dry.

Pros of landline
Several people can talk at once - last year we had five corners calling in crashes at the same time and I (acting as control) was able to get all the information quickly due to Road America's new landline. This is a landline's big advantage.
There's much less distortion and no delay for speaking when compared to radios Safety information gets to corners or control in optimum time and is usually understood on the first call. Of course if the earphone spacer isn't paying attention, it may not do much good.
There are no batteries to worry about

Cons of landline
Lightening travels. If it's a wire line, everyone on the phones can get shocked by one bolt of lightening.
Repairs aren't as fast.
The communicator is on a tether, like a dog on a chain.
Not as weather sensitive as radio's but rain doesn't do them any good (though if it's buried cable, rain can help conductivity).

[DarrellB]

Originally posted by Piglet
If you're imposing this on your marshals you're at great risk of a negligence claim from someone at some point in the future. Not using any form of ear protection in a motorsport environment is storing up problems for the future.

I don't think sss was talking about ear protection but radio headsets. Not using a headset will alow the marshals nearby to hear what is going on and then they will not be left completely in the dark about what is going on.