Brands Hatch - keep the fans out?

paul-collins · 16 Apr 2003, 14:11 (Ref:571177)

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=36394

Sounds like Octagon are busy making sure that no one will see anything, and that the drivers will think it's just a hilly version of their street-canyon races...

Lee Janotta · 16 Apr 2003, 14:34 (Ref:571204)

I'm done with it. I'm ashamed CART has any part of this horrendous atrocity. First the Peraltada, now this.

It's no better than F1.

Jay · 16 Apr 2003, 16:55 (Ref:571319)

I read that thread. It didn't really sound any different from what we have to face at the North American street and road circuits. Two layers of 10 foot high fencing is not uncommon at most street circuits, and I hear mid-Ohio has something like that too. The first layer is usually 10 feet or so tall and is designed to catch flying car parts and cars (see 1996 Molson Indy), the second layer might only be 8 feet tall and is simply to keep spectators a safe distance from the track and away from the marshalls and photographers. The only thing that surprised me is that there wouldn't be ample holes for photographers... most circuits have lots of 'em.

Lee, most Cart circuits are about the same as F1 when it comes to fencing. The only difference is they allow the fans (who pay a small fee) into the paddock area.

Lee Janotta · 16 Apr 2003, 19:11 (Ref:571459)

Road circuits here are nothing that, Jay! Look at the newly posted photo in that thread, it _does_ look like a damn POW camp!

camcartfan · 16 Apr 2003, 20:23 (Ref:571513)

Lee, you really should take up tennis or something....

Dov · 16 Apr 2003, 20:29 (Ref:571517)

It's no different from what the Molson Indy in Toronto looks like. You just have to scope out a good area were you can take some pictures. That being said, it does look like CART is trying to make the tracks more safe for the fans. I no the fans want to be as close to the action as possible, but if an accident...like Toronto 96 happens, they the fans may wish that there was 3 or 4 fences in front of them. As a fan, it all depends on you knowing the risks involved and if your willing to take them.

Lee Janotta · 16 Apr 2003, 20:36 (Ref:571521)

Yeah, but it's not a street course, it's a road course... No need for that fencing at all, the average fan never gets that close, just photographers and marshalls.

Tennis? Sure, gimme a weapon, that'd be smart!

Jay · 16 Apr 2003, 22:40 (Ref:571611)

Lee pictures don't look at pictures, attend Toronto, Montreal, mid-ohio, Vancouver... or any of Cart's road/street circuits, then complain. The amount of fencing around road and street circuits has increased incredibly in the the late 90s. There used to only be one layer of catch fencing, and the marshalls actually stood outside of it, behind concrete barriers. That all changed after Krosnoff's crash. And since then they have further increased the amount of fencing.

brightline · 16 Apr 2003, 23:01 (Ref:571628)

Viewing a race through one or two fences is tough sometimes, but you deal with it because you love to watch races! If it is tough to see through the fence you move back a few feet or you get right up to the second fence, simple as that. You don't **** and moan about it. It's not called "block you view fencing" it's call "catch fencing" as in catch all those flying parts. I personally feel safer with the extra fence especially with open wheelers. Man some of you guys are negative. I know that this is like sacred ground to some of you but give me a break, if they could put up that terrible new "pagoda" at Indy and get away with it, we can live with a little chain link fence in the name of safety.

Lee Janotta · 16 Apr 2003, 23:28 (Ref:571647)

Like I said, Jay!

Mexico City:
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/car...ex-jc-0213.jpg
Road America:
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/car...el-mk-0421.jpg
Portland:
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/car...or-cm-0528.jpg
Mid-Ohio:
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/car...mo-tm-0424.jpg

Where are the thick, massive Camp X-Ray fences that they've put up at Brands?

They aren't there! Where there is fencing at these tracks, it's to hold the trees back, or where the stands get especially close to the track!

paul-collins · 16 Apr 2003, 23:59 (Ref:571657)

I'd say that the locals have some inkling what sort of safety measures are required, and they're the ones primarily complaining about it.

If this is what would be required for a CART race to go to Mosport, then they should stay the h*ll away.

I understand why the fence is required at street circuits - the fans get so much closer, and the accidents have so much more potential to harm, due to the lack of runoff. But Brands? Come on!

Heck, if this is their response to safety, why are they limiting the cars to the Indy circuit? Why can't they build a suitable chainlink tunnel around the full circuit?

DNQ · 17 Apr 2003, 00:10 (Ref:571668)

Lee, what would you prefer. Hhave Tilke do a Brands makeover so it's 'safe' or have some ugly fences around the place? They're the only valid options...

Lee Janotta · 17 Apr 2003, 00:13 (Ref:571670)

Option number 3, DNQ. Leave it the hell alone!

Don't people have lives outside of trying to absolutely ruin everything that makes motorsport enjoyable, in the name of safety?

There's nothing wrong with Brands Hatch! There was nothing wrong 17 years ago!

Jay · 17 Apr 2003, 00:52 (Ref:571685)

Lee, the people you see infront of the fences have photographer's passes or are marshalls. If you become a marshall or obtain a photographers pass either through paying for it or through the media centre, you can get there. Otherwise you must watch the race behind the fences for your own safety.

If you look at the mid-ohio and the portland photo you can even see the two layers of fencing I mentioned above. The fans are behind those two fences.

Lee Janotta · 17 Apr 2003, 00:59 (Ref:571693)

It still doesn't look like a concentration camp, Jay!

The Brands Indy circuit is being _totally_ fenced in, and there's a world of difference!

theracegypsy · 17 Apr 2003, 23:43 (Ref:572654)

Lee, when did you last marshal Road america or mid O?

Just remember we need those fences to protect us too.

Having marshaled for many years both sides of the Atlantic, and in the far east, I know Brands need ed upgrading for safety.

Lee Janotta · 17 Apr 2003, 23:54 (Ref:572662)

They wouldn't have the damn SCCA Runoffs at Mid-Ohio, and the June Sprints at Road America every year if there were problems with marshall's safety.

jklein6419 · 18 Apr 2003, 21:04 (Ref:573525)

LEE, I RESPECT YOU A LOT, BUT COMPARE THE SIZE OF THOSE OTHER TRACKS COMPARED TO BRANDS. THEY SAY THAT THE RACE AT BRANDS WILL BE LIKE RACING ON A ROVAL. THAY THE LAP TIMES WILL BE SIMILAR TO TIMES AT NAZERETH. PLUS AT ALL THOSE ROAD CIRCUITS YOU POINTED OUT, LOOK AT HOW FAR BACK THE CROWD IS AT PORTLAND, MEXICO, AND MID OHIO. YET I STILL HOPE THEY ADD GRANDSTANDS. IF NOT THIS YEAR MAYBE NEXT YEAR.

Dov · 18 Apr 2003, 22:08 (Ref:573564)

Quote:

Originally posted by theracegypsy
Lee, when did you last marshal Road america or mid O?

Just remember we need those fences to protect us too.

Having marshaled for many years both sides of the Atlantic, and in the far east, I know Brands need ed upgrading for safety.

Theracegypsy is right. As fans, sometimes we only think about areselves and not the marshalls. Again Im bringing up Toronto 96, not only was Jeff Krosnoff the driver killed...so was a track marshall...I believe his name was Gary Avron or Avrin. Another marshall was also hurt quite badly.

Lee Janotta · 19 Apr 2003, 00:35 (Ref:573649)

*sigh* I had this eloquent post all written out, and accidently clicked the stupid Explorer logo, and lost the whole thing.

So I'm trying to re-write this, and re-writes are never as good.

jklein: Which is why the race should be held on the GP circuit, the Indy circuit is totally inadequate for modern Champcars.

Look... If the fences come back down after the Champcar race... If this is just another example of Octagon's typical incompetence... I can live with it. But experience tells me it isn't, and that they'll be there for good, forever obstructing the natural beauty that is Brands Hatch.

Lee Janotta · 19 Apr 2003, 00:54 (Ref:573655)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dov
Theracegypsy is right. As fans, sometimes we only think about areselves and not the marshalls. Again Im bringing up Toronto 96, not only was Jeff Krosnoff the driver killed...so was a track marshall...I believe his name was Gary Avron or Avrin. Another marshall was also hurt quite badly.

I'm rather incensed, actually, and I was willing to let the personal jab go. But I think I need to address it.

I don't marshall. Hell, I've only actually gotten out to races 4 times in my life. Y'know why? I'm _broke_. I'm a full-time college student. It's a luxury I can't afford. Dammit, parts fall off my car every time I slam the door!

If I had the means, I'd be out at the track every single weekend. But I have neither the time nor the money.

Does that make me any less dedicated or knowledgeable? I have spent 18 years watching every form of motorsport I can find. I've critically studied crashes, passes, onboard laps. I've researched obsessively. I don't feel comfortable speaking on subjects I'm not well versed in, so I try to be well-versed on all topics.

I have the utmost admiration for marshalls. The sport wouldn't happen without them. But neither would it happen without fans. I can't afford to come out to the races, but I take every opportunity to prostheletise for the sport, and CART in particular (which I'm having more and more trouble justifying, but that's another subject). But I'm insulted when drivers, marshalls or anyone else looks down upon fans. We're as essential to the existance of professional motorsport as any other group.

Jeff Krosnoff's crash at Toronto is forever burned into my memory, as are so many other wrecks that I watched over and over on video, to try and understand what went wrong, and how it could be fixed. Perhaps I give the wrong impression, that I'm against safety. Nothing is further from the truth. What I'm against is senseless knee-jerk reactions made by politicians with no real involvement in racing (Octagon, much of the World Motorsport Council, etc).

Krosnoff's crash is a case in point. It is demonstrative of how the tight confines of a street circuit create a dangerous situation. Had that fencing been back another 5 feet, Jeff and the marshalls might all have escaped without injury! Instead, the fencing caught Jeff's car at the highest point in it's flight, and tore it to shreds like a branch through a wood chipper, throwing pieces in every direction, then flung him into that pole. The marshall's station, sadly, was IN FRONT of the fencing, so it wouldn't have done them a bit of good no matter how high and sturdy it was!

Brands Hatch is a different animal entirely, and there are no real comparisons between a street course in Toronto, and a beautiful natural road course in Kent.

What I'm asking for is something that the powers-that-be seem COMPLETELY incapable of giving us: Sensible solutions to REAL, _not_hypothetical_ concerns!

Brands Hatch has been under a magnifying glass since Herbert's freak accident on a goddam STRAIGHTAWAY! It's unfair, and it needs to stop. The British nannies need to find something else to do with their time than obsessively pursue the destruction of a single, nearly perfect circuit.

Dov · 19 Apr 2003, 02:13 (Ref:573680)

I can only speak for myself and nobody else. What I said was not meant as a personal jab at you Lee. I apoligize if you fealt I was singling you out. I repeat: As FANS, "sometimes we only think about areselves" and not the marshalls. THAT INCLUDES ME TOO. That being said, I am a serious race fan like yourself and have thought long and hard for many years how we could make are sport safer for the drivers, marshalls and the fans. The one thing I never understand about Toronto 96...why were the marshalls allowed to stand in front of the fence, so close to the racing wall while racing cars on the other side were slowing down from speeds up to 195 MPH.

Lee Janotta · 19 Apr 2003, 02:22 (Ref:573686)

Don't worry about it, Dov... I'm not really mad at you. Not really mad at anyone, but I felt I needed to fend off that little attack on my credibility from racegypsy.

I do enjoy being able to really sit down and discuss these things, rather than just yelling back and forth at each other.

Why the marshalls were in front of the fence? I can't figure, but I suppose it wasn't considered a danger at the time. Honestly, who could have predicted a car'd literally come flying at their heads at top speed? You could probably go a full decade and not have an accident even close to that one.

Jay · 19 Apr 2003, 02:57 (Ref:573702)

Lee, that was the way almost all Cart street circuits were fenced off until recently. Now there is another layer of fencing that can catch cars on the concrete barrier you see in front of the fence.

At that particular spot, there's a large hill right behind the fencing and several old trees, lamp posts not to mention the curb so obviously the track is as wide as can be.

As for accidents like that, they've happened on wide ovals, they've happened on street circuits and they've happened on road courses. Probably the most similar one I've seen recently that involved a wall was Jacques Villeneuve's crash in Melbourne. That was hardly a tight confining street circuit.

Lee, as much as I respect your knowledge attained from viewing countless hours of video tape, there are certain things that you can really only learn by exploring the race tracks themselves and speaking the pilots, marshalls and officials themselves. No doubt there are things you know about racing that even the most seasoned marshall or driver would not, but I don't think this is one of those situations. Sometimes it's best to accept what those that have been to the tracks, have flagged the cars down and have driven the cars have to say and take the time to listen. It's no disrespect to the fans, they're the whole reason the drivers are out there and in many cases possess more knowledge than those involved in the sport. But hey, as much racing as I've seen I wouldn't tell a driver how to take a corner or a marshall that they're in a safe or dangerous spot (they tell me that, and I'm grateful...).

Lee Janotta · 19 Apr 2003, 03:07 (Ref:573704)

Agreed to a degree, Jay. But we must also consider that Brands Hatch was here before a lot of us, and will probably outlast most of us. So we all need to have a voice in what's done to it, and other great circuits.

I'd never argue with a marshall over who's in a dangerous position. That's their call, and more, their asses if something goes wrong. I don't want to sound like I know everything, _far_ from it, I'm still learning things all the time (which is why I keep coming here). But I'm no neophyte.

But by the same token, now there's even more fencing to shred a flying car to pieces. Whee. Great improvement for the drivers, right? And at the expense of the spectator's view. See how an improvement for one group can be to the detriment of others?

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