Safety Equipment??

[Dan Friel]

This is one for the Brits I think… although any comments from elsewhere would be very useful!!

As a few of you may know, it’s my hope to do some sort of competitive driving next year, although racing depends on cash, I’ll certainly be doing some sprinting in my Midget…

The question being… What personal safety equipment do you recommend?? I know there are certain standards for overalls (BS 6349) and helmets (BS 6658 – 85 Type A), but cost varies a lot and what is the best bargain??

Although I don’t need this standard of equipment to do sprinting, I think its worth while buying it anyway so not to waste money in the long term… So any ideas, or is it just a case of phoning up Demon Tweeks and seeing what they have!!

[Peter Mallett]

Dan,

The answer to your question is applicable world-wide. There are various levels of competition safety equipment so I will give you my advice.

Never EVER undertake any motorsport with inadequate safety equipment.

Therefore

FIA Cut-out switch with remote pull cable.
Harness - 4 point minimum, FIA approved. (75mm wide shoulder straps are preferable because they don't need padding).
Helmet - Snell 95 or later. (Full face for open top racing). I use full face "touring" style.
Racesuit - 3 layer nomex with FIA approval.
Rollcage - with door bars and FIA certificate.
Fire extinguisher - The Blue book specifies a minimum. However a mechanically operated 2.5kg system should be the minimum.
Boots - Nomex race boots.
Underwear - full set including socks and balaclava.
Gloves - Gauntlet style two-layer nomex.

I would not recommend "economising" on these items because its your life.

A good roll cage will also add rigidity to the vehicle.

So. If you want to take it seriously and you can't afford to buy the above and race. Then buy the above and race the following year.

[Dan Friel]

I fully agree with what you say about safety, marshalling over the last few years, i've seen some pretty nasty accidents and the driver walks away - only due to his safety gear... so no skimping on this front.

You mention alot of gear which is not obilgtory for sprinting, but I think are needed!!!

Do you have any good contacts for suppliers, as I never feel like Demon Tweeks etc are necessarily the best deal..

[Peter Mallett]

Just a few ideas.

For gas flowing - Peter Burgess (Don't believe you can't do it just cos the regs say so).

Clutches - Helix Autosport - Terry Ormerod

Roll Cages fire extinghuishers and harnesses - Safety Devices

Trans Auto Sport (Extinguishers and special machined parts)

Brake pads, Numbers, pit equipment - Trident Racing Supplies

Race suits/boots/gauntlets/helmets - Merlin motorsport (Castle Combe)(Most comfortable race suit I've ever owned)
Advanced Wear and Safety
Demon Tweeks
Grand Prix Racewear


It’s a start anyway.

(Copy of PM'd message with phone numbers removed).

[Dan Friel]

I hadn't thought of Merlin... I shall trott round to the shop in a couple of weeks when up at Combe..

I have the Safety Devices catalogue..

Shall check out the others..

Thanks.

[josvandeperre]

Peter - why do you mention Snell 95 in preference to 6658 A/FR for instance ? is this an attempt by your series to confuse other racers as I note your regulations for Spa reckon only Snell is acceptable ?

And coat hangers and corn flake packets make good timing struts provided you also have a black felt tip - or in best Blue Peter style sticky backed plastic - unless you are in the RAF or similar in which case your workshop could probably make you up some wonderfully excessive item

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by josvandeperre
Peter - why do you mention Snell 95 in preference to 6658 A/FR for instance ? is this an attempt by your series to confuse other racers as I note your regulations for Spa reckon only Snell is acceptable ?

And coat hangers and corn flake packets make good timing struts provided you also have a black felt tip - or in best Blue Peter style sticky backed plastic - unless you are in the RAF or similar in which case your workshop could probably make you up some wonderfully excessive item

I am sitting in an office a long way from my Blue book so I would request a little slack due to my failing memory.

However. 6658 A/FR is not an International Standard is it? In which case it will become obsolete before the Snell standard. But if not, hey-ho.

BTW. Luke harnesses have stopped making their "clubman" harnesses and now concentrate on the FIA approved harness instead.

This is because the MSA have decreed that all equipment must meet FIA standards from (I think) next year. This is where the Snell reference comes from.

Not sure what "regs" you are referring to. If by "Our series" as you call it you mean the BARC/CSCC Championship it is not running at Spa, its a non-championship event running to FIA rules.

In the context of this thread I don't understand your reference to cornflake packets etc. Please expand.

Just for info though. I did say that my list was a starter and if you or anybody has any good advice to offer a novice why not post it here?

[josvandeperre]

Thanks advice re FIA replacing National eg Luke Harnesses

As for 6658 A/FR my understanding is that this is an FIA approved spec ie I can and have used my A/FR helmet in FIA rounds

Corn flake packets relates to the timing strut for hills & sprints which started this thread

When I spoke to the MSA on May 5 this year they advised that type A helmets are ok for National events only until 01/01/2003 - so there's no point in buying BS 6658 type A ie not fireproof

I echo Merlin being helpful and my suit came from Advance - don't forget that sometimes there are good gear deals at the racing car show at the NEC in January

Gurston and Harewood do schools which are highly recommended and I think there may also be one still at Prescott

Talk to other members of the club whose competition you will be doing as they will be particulartly helpful with the car criteria



PS Peter - Hope to meet you this weekend

[apguy]

B*gger I'm gonna sound like a pedant, oh well....

However. 6658 A/FR is not an International Standard is it? In which case it will become obsolete before the Snell standard. But if not, hey-ho.

6658 Type A/FR is International and recognised as such in the blue book. Type A is no longer allowed for International.

BTW. Luke harnesses have stopped making their "clubman" harnesses and now concentrate on the FIA approved harness instead.

They do still make "Clubman" harnesses as I have a relatively new 4 point set. I've just upgraded to a 6 point Luke with FIA approval specifically for Spa. Really it was 130UKP I could do without!

This is because the MSA have decreed that all equipment must meet FIA standards from (I think) next year. This is where the Snell reference comes from.

Not sure where you get that from. It's still permissible to run with a std road car 3 point seatbelt next year if you want - the blue book allows this. There's no mention of FIA standards for national events. Same with helmets.
Same with rollcages, you get both national and FIA spec.
As for standards, Snell SA95 is a US standard. The BS6658-AFR is the UK equivalent, SFI the European.
Nothing in the blue book indicates that we're going FIA only....

Not sure what "regs" you are referring to. If by "Our series" as you call it you mean the BARC/CSCC Championship it is not running at Spa, its a non-championship event running to FIA rules.

I think Jos is referring to Barry SS notes. He was pretty vague about which International regs would apply at Spa and only mentioned SA95 helmets, which left some of us wondering about seatbelts, seats and rollcages.

I know nothing about cornflake packets

It was a good list to start with Peter.

[Steve Hart]

Hi Dan,
I am presuming from your description of "personal safety equipment" that you're mainly asking about the stuff you wear? I agree with what Peter said, and would add a couple of things.

Try to get your stuff from one place and get the vendor to give you a discount for doing so, you should get at least 10% off the lot depending on what brands you buy (some, like Sparco, give the dealers less margin to play with).

To the list of places to buy from, if you fancy OMP gear you could try D.C.Cook at Silverstone, they're often a little cheaper than the more established ones.

Don't just go on the number of Nomex layers, Sparco do an excellent 2-layer suit but the Nomex weave is thicker than some 3-layer cheaper suits.

Get everything Nomex, get the Nomex socks, Nomex long-johns, shirt, balaclava, bra, panties.......

Never ever skimp on the helmet...get the absolute best you can afford. You don't need the coolest boots but you do need to look after your head.

After a couple of stiff necks from minor knocks I realised how vulnerable the neck is and how heavy a helmetted head is, so now I wear a neck brace which is excellent (although I seem to be in a minority).

Good luck,
Steve

[Peter Mallett]

Phew,

This is a good topic.

As I said I'm working from memory so the info here is most useful.

Andrew, your comments re Luke are what I meant. I read somewhere that they no longer recommended the Clubman harness for racing due to proposed changes to national regs. Is that why you spent that £130.00?

So Snell 95 and BS6658-AFR are equivalent? Didn't realise that was the case. Doesn't change the helmet you buy though.

originally posted by APGuy

Not sure where you get that from. It's still permissible to run with a std road car 3 point seatbelt next year if you want - the blue book allows this.

The blue book allows a three point standard roadcar seatbelt? I think you mean a minimum three point harness. Show me the passage at Spa.

I have run with two and three layer suits. Advance Wear and Safety two layer suits are perfectly ok and FIA approved. The Sparco suits are also perfectly acceptable. The one I bought from Merlin is three layer and is really very comfortable.

The Blue book gives designs for roll cages. You are quite right Andrew, all you need is a roll hoop, but if you go to Safety Devices or Rollcentre they will provide a standard cage to suit the car which will have an FIA certificate (or will be FIA approved) because they don't sell anything else. You can also go to them and buy individual components and build the cage yourself but you will need to have an inspection to ontain certification. I agree that this is not necessary for sprinting but Don may well want to race as well.

Good information chaps keep it coming.

[Dan Friel]

Just a quickie... I shall respond to everything properly laters...(this is all good stuff!!!!!!!!)

What's the difference betweeen a

BS6658 A/FR

and a

BS6658 - 85 A/FR

helmet?????

And are both approved by the FIA??

[apguy]

I appreciate that Peter is working from memory, but I've got the blue book in front of me now

Andrew, your comments re Luke are what I meant. I read somewhere that they no longer recommended the Clubman harness for racing due to proposed changes to national regs. Is that why you spent that £130.00?

The Luke 4 points I had were fine, but there weren't FIA labeled and so wouldn't have passed scrutineering at Spa (an Int event). They're still eligible for National racing however and the blue book makes no mention of FIA approval becoming mandatory.

The blue book allows a three point standard roadcar seatbelt? I think you mean a minimum three point harness. Show me the passage at Spa.

Blue Book section Q
2. Seats, seat belts and headrests
2.1 All seat safety belts must be complete units sourced from a recognised manufacturer and fitted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.
2.1.1 Three point. One diagonal shoulder strap and one lap strap, with 3 anchorage points on the chassis/body shell or roll over bar of the vehicle on either side and to the rear of the drivers seat.
2.1.6 All seat belts used in International events must be homologated by the FIA, and carry their label.

In that case a seat belt manufactured by Vauxhall (recognised manufacturer) installed in its existing location (3 anchorage points etc) would pass this section. There are no mention of standards, FIA approval or anything else for National racing. I'm not suggesting its a good idea though

In fact the bare minimum safety requirements for racing don't really appeal to me. For instance, door bars are not a requirement on a roll cage! For me, that's ludicrous, I've seen what a side impact does and I want a big piece of steel in the way!

BTW Good point about the rollcages, Peter. I've checked Safety Devices, OMP and Sparco rollcages lineup and all their standard cages are FIA approved.

As for Dan's question:

What's the difference betweeen a BS6658 A/FR and a BS6658 - 85 A/FR helmet?????

errr, according to the good book you get
BS6658-85 Type A
or
BS6658 Type A/FR
(the FR means Fire Retardent - as in the lining)

Type A/FR helmets are FIA approved but there's a note in the blue book that says both Snell SA90 and Type A/FR are about to be deleted. (My 99 blue book says from 01.01.2001 but I think that period got extended - anyone with the 2000 edition to hand?)
So if you want to buy a helmet that will last more than a couple of seasons before being made obsolete - get a Snell SA95 approved helmet.

Blimey this thread's getting long...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by apguy
I appreciate that Peter is working from memory, but I've got the blue book in front of me now

Andrew, your comments re Luke are what I meant. I read somewhere that they no longer recommended the Clubman harness for racing due to proposed changes to national regs. Is that why you spent that £130.00?

I still recall reading it. BTW. I bought a four point FIA 75mm harness from Luke last year for £120.00

Originally posted by apguy


The Luke 4 points I had were fine, but there weren't FIA labeled and so wouldn't have passed scrutineering at Spa (an Int event). They're still eligible for National racing however and the blue book makes no mention of FIA approval becoming mandatory.

Yeah, it was probably due to the type of quick release. I had the same problem.

Originally posted by apguy


The blue book allows a three point standard roadcar seatbelt? I think you mean a minimum three point harness. Show me the passage at Spa.

Blue Book section Q
2. Seats, seat belts and headrests
2.1 All seat safety belts must be complete units sourced from a recognised manufacturer and fitted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.
2.1.1 Three point. One diagonal shoulder strap and one lap strap, with 3 anchorage points on the chassis/body shell or roll over bar of the vehicle on either side and to the rear of the drivers seat.

In that case a seat belt manufactured by Vauxhall (recognised manufacturer) installed in its existing location (3 anchorage points etc) would pass this section. There are no mention of standards, FIA approval or anything else for National racing. I'm not suggesting its a good idea though

I've never really read those parts I've always accepted that you have a full harness etc. Wonder if the scrutes would allow it?

Originally posted by apguy


In fact the bare minimum safety requirements for racing don't really appeal to me. For instance, door bars are not a requirement on a roll cage! For me, that's ludicrous, I've seen what a side impact does and I want a big piece of steel in the way!

BTW Good point about the rollcages, Peter. I've checked Safety Devices, OMP and Sparco rollcages lineup and all their standard cages are FIA approved.

As for Dan's question:

What's the difference betweeen a BS6658 A/FR and a BS6658 - 85 A/FR helmet?????

errr, according to the good book you get
BS6658-85 Type A
or
BS6658 Type A/FR
(the FR means Fire Retardent - as in the lining)

Type A/FR helmets are FIA approved but there's a note in the blue book that says both Snell SA90 and Type A/FR are about to be deleted. (My 99 blue book says from 01.01.2001 but I think that period got extended - anyone with the 2000 edition to hand?)

So does that mean BS6685 is being deleted from FIA approval?

Originally posted by apguy

So if you want to buy a helmet that will last more than a couple of seasons before being made obsolete - get a Snell SA95 approved helmet.

That's why I said SA95 in the first place.

[apguy]

So does that mean BS6685 is being deleted from FIA approval?

BS6685?

Section Q
10. Crash Helmets
10.3.1 Standard
Helmets bearing one of the undermentioned standards may be approved by the MSA subject to other criteria being met.
ACCEPTABLE HELMET STANDARDS
..BS 6658-85 "A" (Type "B" is not acceptable)*
..From 1.1.2000 Type "A" helmets are no longer accepted for international events. Type A/FR remain acceptable
..BS 6658 Type A/FR*
..SNELL SA 90*
..SNELL SA 95
..SFI Foundation 31.1, 31.2

Standards marked with an asterisk (*) may be deleted from 01.01.2003

(In my 99 edition it say 2001, but I'm informed this date was moved)

Hope this helps folks.

[spnixon]

A related question:

I also lashed out £130 on new harnesses for Spa.

If I fit these 6 point Willans harnesses to my Golf (to replace the non homologated 2" 4 points in there now) do I HAVE to use the extra two straps?

My seat is a Sparco Sprint which is only has 4 belt holes so I would have to start chopping the seat up.

[apguy]

If I fit these 6 point Willans harnesses to my Golf (to replace the non homologated 2" 4 points in there now) do I HAVE to use the extra two straps?

The only reference is the blue book and Section Q says:

2.1.6
Notes. It is not permitted to mix parts of seat belts. Only complete sets as supplied by manufacturers should be used.

Which would imply that if you buy a 6 point harness, you must use 6 points.

Have you looked at your new belts yet? My Luke 6 point has the buckle attached to the 2 crutch straps which means I would have to use all 6 points anyway. There would be no way for me to leave off the 2 crutch straps.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by spnixon
A related question:

I also lashed out £130 on new harnesses for Spa.

If I fit these 6 point Willans harnesses to my Golf (to replace the non homologated 2" 4 points in there now) do I HAVE to use the extra two straps?

My seat is a Sparco Sprint which is only has 4 belt holes so I would have to start chopping the seat up.

Dunno about chopping a seat. I wouldn't do it.

However a question.

Why have you bought six point harnesses for a touring car? Unless you are virtually lying down in the car (a la single seater) you are unlikely to "submarine" in a touring car seat. You just have to make sure the lap belt is tight across the hips and doesn't pull up when the shoulder belts are tightened.

[spnixon]

Andrew - on the Willans harnesses, the buckle is attached to the left hand side lap strap - so it is perfectly possible to use the belts without the crutch straps. (Lucky the black Luke ones weren't in stock..)

So if I do use the harnesses without the crutch straps, it would be fairly difficult for anyone to notice they weren't just 4 point harnesses - there's just two slots under the buckle that would be empty.

But thanks for the reference to 2.1.6. In theory I would be breaking the rules, so its something to bear in mind.

Peter - 6 points were only a few quid more than 4 points, and they do mean you havn't got to worry about the lap strap moving up too high and having to keep re-adjusting it - something my current one always does. They also look more impressive, weigh very little more and sound safer when you come to advertise the car - whether they are or not.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by spnixon
Peter - 6 points were only a few quid more than 4 points, and they do mean you havn't got to worry about the lap strap moving up too high and having to keep re-adjusting it - something my current one always does. They also look more impressive, weigh very little more and sound safer when you come to advertise the car - whether they are or not.

My Luke four points have the slot for the lap straps so I suspect that its the norm to use just one turn-buckle for the whole range.

If you need to keep re-adjusting your lap straps you may have them located incorrectly. I only have to make mine tighter as I lose weight!!!

Personally I would never use a second hand set of belts so I wouldn't care if they were 3, 4 or 6 point. If they were in the price of the car I'd ask for a reduction.

Looking impressive? Surely functionality is more important than looks?

[spnixon]

<My Luke four points have the slot for the lap straps so I suspect that its the norm to use just one turn-buckle for the whole range.>

Good news - I'll just use mine as four point for the moment too then.

<Looking impressive? Surely functionality is more important than looks?>

Of course. But I get the same functionality as you, plus the option to put two more straps on if I want to.

Anyway, according to my Demon Tweeks catalog, the harnesses I've bought ARE for a saloon car - they're called LD6 Saloon 3" with Fixed T Crutch Strap. They sell another model for single seaters.

Willans don't make (or Demon don't sell) a four point harness with 3" lap straps - only 6 point.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by spnixon
<My Luke four points have the slot for the lap straps so I suspect that its the norm to use just one turn-buckle for the whole range.>

Good news - I'll just use mine as four point for the moment too then.

<Looking impressive? Surely functionality is more important than looks?>

Of course. But I get the same functionality as you, plus the option to put two more straps on if I want to.

Anyway, according to my Demon Tweeks catalog, the harnesses I've bought ARE for a saloon car - they're called LD6 Saloon 3" with Fixed T Crutch Strap. They sell another model for single seaters.

Willans don't make (or Demon don't sell) a four point harness with 3" lap straps - only 6 point.

I know they are for a saloon. I am familiar with the catalogues (sad really) I just think we are being ripped off by the makers. You really don't need six points for a saloon or TC but I agree it is added safety.

There are Nascar style belts which have the crutch straps looped over the lap straps. At the speeds achieved by the NASCAR boys I can see the benefit of this style.

However. Don't cut that seat just in case.

[Dan Friel]

Well i'm glad its just not me that's confused!!!

I think the helmet question has been answered... Snell 95 rated helmets are expensive... but all others below may be out've date by 2003. Interesting. Shall have to weigh up my options..

Belts seem to confuse everyone!! So if I aim at 4 strap 3" belts with an FIA badge on them, that'll do..

As for overalls.. I thought they had to be 3 layered Nomex - but Steve (and the Demon Tweeks catalogue) suggest that some 2 layered ones are legal!!

I have a 10% of card for Demon Tweeks, so that's the place to head to first and check out costs...

Sorry this has taken up so much time, but thanks for the help!!

[josvandeperre]

Dan - re helmets - NO - only type BS 6658 A (non Fireproof lining) is banned in the UK after 1/1/2003

Type BS 6658 A/FR which equates to Snell SA95 is not dated yet and so for example almost any Sparco helmet is fine and will be for some time both for National and FIA competition

Enjoy your shopping

[Dan Friel]

I got confused by the *'s.. But I wouldn't buy anything that wasn't FR rated anyway..

As for happy shopping... I have to sort the car out first!! Which could take some time (and cash)!!