*rant* peoples views on British fans of F1

[Mr V]

There seems to be alot of posts just lately where posters have said that "your (British fan's) view is because (driver/team X) is British"

I must say that is beginning to me off big time!

It seems to happen mostly with regards to Michael and posts/threads concerning him.

Just wondering why this is? Do posters think that because Britian went to war with Germany that we now can't think for ourselves anymore? That we've been brainwashed and we can't appreciate a German drivers acheivements?

I must admit i don't recall people saying.....

(Austrailian poster X) only supports Mark Webber because he's Australian.

or

(Canadian poster X) only supports Jacques Villeneuve because he's Canadain.

Imo, when these posts appear, making these claims against British posters, it ammounts to "attacking the poster" and must stop.

I recently read a post in the "Bike Forum" where the mod asked posters to stop using the term "Jap" and refer to the "Japanese" as "Japanese" because it was seen as offensive.

Where's the difference?

[Glen]

Whereas I recognise that moderating this must be a difficult job, I do strongly believe that the situation is becoming ludicrously over-sensitive. To a degree it is obviously true that British fans have a general tendency (in the main) to shout for Briitsh drivers - so what's the problem? OK, so in some instances it isn't true - but so what? It's only shooting the breeze about something that we are armchair enthusiasts of - it's not insulting our direct family or inciting racial hatred!

I don't get what's wrong with Jap - short for Japanese in the same way that Brit is short for British.

Honestly I am constantly surprised at the number of threads that get shut down because of a little good-natured banter. At the end of the day - who cares?

[Gt_R]

Haha..MrV, if it's any consolation, yes i do find it rather silly and cannot comprehend the logic behind those thinkings too.

But while it's generally not a serious bias-problem to most, some people do tend to dislike/like certain drivers more due to their nationality (which is harmless). What is a little more serious is some people who go all out to argue for a driver's capability (or rather lack of) because of loyalty to one's nationality.

Don't worry..it's not a British vs World thing.. such things happen everywhere... from Japan (sato), to Malaysia (Yoong), to Spain (alonso), to Germany (Michael), to Holland (Jos), to canada (JV), to colombia (JPM) and so on..

[Mr V]

The difference is Gt_R,(and this isn't meant for you, but in general) you don't see posts saying to (german posters) "your only saying that about Michael because he's German"

I could go through the threads and quoting the poeple who make the claims, but

a) i don't wanna waste my time, these people know they've said it, and should think, ok, i won't say it in future.

b) i don't want to embarress them, by quoting them

[Super Tourer]

Originally posted by Mr V
There seems to be alot of posts just lately where posters have said that "your (British fan's) view is because (driver/team X) is British"

I must say that is beginning to me off big time!

It seems to happen mostly with regards to Michael and posts/threads concerning him.

Speaking with my 'personal hat' on, I am as mystified as anyone why nationality is an issue - for me it certainly isn't, I like to think of myself as an F1 fan first and foremost, not a driver fan per se.

[BootsOntheSide]

Very valid point Mr V. Time and again I find myself reading blind pro-Webber/JV/JV assessment written by Australians/Dutchmen/Canadians,a dn it becomes quite infuriating that people can be blind to the flaws of their home drivers.

I don't sense any anti-German vibe among any of the posters here, unless we count the expression 'That German Fellow' as being an insult - and the person who came up with that isn't British - much of the world has reason to be upset with German actions of the 30s.

[climb]

MrV, it's a pity (and a nonsense) if someone bashes British for being british.
But I dont' think it's a whole problem of nationalism: it's just related to motorsport.
And from this point of view, it's sad but unquestionable that, from the brit side, there is a good deal of illwill related to several years of poor results.
Yes MrV, most british fans are frustrated by a (too)long time of italo-german domination, and that's normal, as we know that not Italy, nor Germany are the kingdom of auto racing.
Britain is the kingdom of motorsport, and it's expectable that british mostly prevail; the recent reality is dramatically in contrast with this theoretical pronciple.
This carries some of them to a negative attitude towards, e.g., Ferrari and Michael Schumacher (who, nevertheless have the majority of fans worldwide), that provoke the reactions you see.
Posts like those by mansellmania are IMO, just a (often unseemly) reaction to e.g. boots, esorniloc, etc (each of them I respect hugely) who usually (though in a very urbane way) take profit of any topic, to say something negative about ferrari and MS.
Compte-tenu of the negative trend of british motorsport, all this is understandable, but also bound to raise polemics.

[Super Tourer]

Originally posted by Glen
Whereas I recognise that moderating this must be a difficult job, I do strongly believe that the situation is becoming ludicrously over-sensitive.

Honestly I am constantly surprised at the number of threads that get shut down because of a little good-natured banter. At the end of the day - who cares?

With my mods hat on.

I can assure you we want threads to run and run as long as there is good debate and points being made. However, all too often it only takes one remark by a poster to set off another, and off we go. In terms of being over sensitive, we are only as sensitive as the reaction from the posters, if someone is going to take a trip off the deep end over what may have been meant as 'good natured banter', we have no option to either close or edit threads.

One of the prob with the written word, is that there is no other parameters, body language, etc to judge the comment by, often they get taken the wrong way, or out of context.

We pride ourselves on the quality of the forum and striking the balance between letting 'minor' arguments run and heading trouble off at the pass by closing or editing, to take the heat out of some situations.

On many occasions we have given the a particular thread some more rope to see if new comments will turn it around, only to be bitten later on as it's deteriorated.

We like to indulge in good natured banter as much as anyone, but it's worth remembering that many of us are long time members and 'know' other posters, their sense of humour, etc.

But we get new members on a daily basis, who may take things the wrong way.

As long as the banter is good natured and well intended, we will be happy to add to it.

ST

[Adam43]

ST has summed up the general situation perfectly there and I have little to add.

There are people here who only post because of nationality. However just as bad is dismissing someone's reply because of nationality or prejudice instead of taking on board their views (even if you disagree with them). The majority of people here post without anything like this coming into consideration. Although sometimes it is hard to hear them over the other noise.

While I sympathise, I am not sure that this thread is the most constructive way of tackling this. If any posts are objectionable then there is the report button. Or if you have a more general complaint about this situation or an example of this then please feel free to PM one of the mods.

[Glen]

Super Tourer

Don't take it personal... not that I'm saying that you are... like I say, it must be difficult to maintain standards. Put it this way, if this weren't the best forum that I've come across I woudn't be here. I just don't see why folk are so easily offended - I mean - it's hardly life & death!

[Super Tourer]

Originally posted by Glen
Super Tourer

Don't take it personal... not that I'm saying that you are... like I say, it must be difficult to maintain standards. Put it this way, if this weren't the best forum that I've come across I woudn't be here. I just don't see why folk are so easily offended - I mean - it's hardly life & death!

Don't worry I didn't Just putting the case for the mods, thanks for rating us as 'the best' - we do try!

As for "I just don't see why folk are so easily offended - I mean - it's hardly life & death!" - You and me both !

ST

[Knowlesy]

It's rather annoying, I agree. In that McLaren team orders Melbourne 1998 thread, I've been saying (along with a lot of others) that I thought the Ferrari 2002 team orders were wrong and the McLaren orders not so wrong.

That's my opinion. In no way am I saying this because I am British! Believe me, the last team I'd stick up for is McLaren (usually)!

For real bias, click on the member search button and type the following:

mansellmania

[Phoenix1]

I think there might be a bit of jumping over the top here. I will generally support and defend a British driver not because I dislike the other guy but because I am proud to be British. In the case of any Schuey bashing I might do for example is not because he is German it is because I don't like him simple as... I like Knowslesy do not support McLaren but stuck up for them. :-S

Pride is not racism.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Phoenix1
Pride is not racism.

Indeed it's not.

And maybe my thread seems a little "over the top" (not referring to you Phoenix) but a reply to (a British fans) post...."your only saying that because your British" is pathetic.

If we say that for every nationality (fortunatly we don't) then it would be one thing.... but the "British" only seem to be the one's having that sort of line "hurled" at us.

[Gt_R]

Haha...didn't a particular Jos fan had it too?

Yeah..at least you guys have some drivers in your nationality to support aye..?

[F3lollipops]

Ok, you called this thread *rant* so here goes...

Firstly, I am 100% British and incredibly proud to be so.

I have not and will never support someone on the grounds of their nationality. I support someone only if I like them and I believe that this is the best reason anyone can have for supporting one person/team over another. However, it is certainly the case that a lot of British people are predisposed to dislike anyone who doesn't support the Briton in any competition.

Originally posted by Glen
Honestly I am constantly surprised at the number of threads that get shut down because of a little good-natured

You say that it's good natured banter, but how often does it degenerate into a slanging match simply because someone has differing views on something?

Originally posted by Mr V
It seems to happen mostly with regards to Michael and posts/threads concerning him.

Just wondering why this is? Do posters think that because Britian went to war with Germany that we now can't think for ourselves anymore? That we've been brainwashed and we can't appreciate a German drivers acheivements?

I find it interesting Mr V, that you have cited comments regarding Michael Schumacher because it was an incident involving that very man that once made me re-think the sport that I love.

I must point out that in my humble opinion, most motor sport fans are just that – sporting fans, but as in any group of people there will always be a small minority who seem to set out to spoil it for the rest of us. I also feel very strongly (and I am quite sure that you will correct me if I am wrong) that within motor sport this problem seems to only exist among the F1 followers. Maybe, like the tennis example below, they are people who do not know enough about the sport to understand that it is a worldwide sport and that it isn’t a crime to support someone from another country.

I attend a large number and variety of race meetings in different countries each year and the one and only time I have ever encountered an example of such a problem was at Silverstone when Michael Schumacher broke his leg. There were a large number of people in the crowd who cheered when he crashed - something which made me feel physically sick – no genuine motor sport fan would ever cheer when someone crashes no matter who is in the car because there is no way of knowing how bad it is. I am also certain that if it had been any of the other drivers who was at Silverstone that day then the cheering would not have happened.

This is not just something that affects 'our' sport, but most others too. Let me give you a couple of other examples...

Football – whilst I am well aware that some ‘fans’ from other countries are less than pure as the driven snow, it is generally British fans that seem to be involved when there is trouble at games.

Tennis – how many people who know absolutely nothing about tennis suddenly become experts for two weeks each summer and blindly cheer on Timbo and will happily jeer at his opponent for no other reason than that he is playing against a British player?

Xenophobia, Nationalism, Prejudice, Bigotry, Descrimination – call it what you will, but what it actually boils down to is racism.

[Super Tourer]

Some valid points made, but I don't think the F1 forum is particularly the place to get into a racism in sport debate.

However, to re-iterate what Adam said earlier, if members object to the content of a thread or post, use the report tab to inform us or PM one of the mods directly.

Closed.

ST

[Wrex]

*Looks at thread starter*


Typical whinging poms

Originally posted by Mr V
I recently read a post in the "Bike Forum" where the mod asked posters to stop using the term "Jap" and refer to the "Japanese" as "Japanese" because it was seen as offensive.

You have to remember (kind of ironic considering the thread) this is an international forum with many different cultures. In Australia for instance, calling an asian person a 'Jap' is considered offensive.

Originally posted by Glen
Honestly I am constantly surprised at the number of threads that get shut down because of a little good-natured banter. At the end of the day - who cares?

Believe me, as ST pointed out, its no joy for us either. Sure we get these Mega salaries for moderating, but do we have to worj for it?

This is indeed the best motorsport forum on the net (IMO) but the 'perfect' forum does'nt need mods. In this forum, we should only be here for newbies that are trolls. The regulars should'nt need moderating.

Originally posted by Super Tourer
Speaking with my 'personal hat' on, I am as mystified as anyone why nationality is an issue

Agreed.

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Very valid point Mr V. Time and again I find myself reading blind pro-Webber/JV/JV assessment written by Australians/Dutchmen/Canadians,a dn it becomes quite infuriating that people can be blind to the flaws of their home drivers.

I do ask this question though, if the Webber fan, Villenueve fan or Jos fan was not from the drivers originating country, would you be as offended? ie if the Webber fan said all the same things but was British, would you take the post the same way? If yes, you (not directed at you specifically Boots) may be the one letting nationality get in the way.

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
However just as bad is dismissing someone's reply because of nationality or prejudice instead of taking on board their views (even if you disagree with them).

Ah yes, thats what I was trying to say

Originally posted by knowlesy
It's rather annoying, I agree. In that McLaren team orders Melbourne 1998 thread, I've been saying (along with a lot of others) that I thought the Ferrari 2002 team orders were wrong and the McLaren orders not so wrong.

And here is the problem. Why did Ferrari 2002 (I agree btw) have anythign to do with that topic?

When we look at threads closed or pulled completely, its more often than not because the original topic has changed direction to the old "them v's us" BS.

Here's a hint. Put 'Jerez' into the Ten-Tenths search function and see how many hits it gets in threads that having nothing to with it!

Originally posted by Phoenix1
I will generally support and defend a British driver not because I dislike the other guy but because I am proud to be British.

And I think thats fine

We should be proud of our Nations drivers. However we must be a little realistic when posting and accept that other members may not feel the same way.

Alot of this I tried to cover in the If the names were reversed? thread. Sadly, most missed the point completely,

Originally posted by Mr V
but a reply to (a British fans) post...."your only saying that because your British" is pathetic.

If we say that for every nationality (fortunatly we don't) then it would be one thing.... but the "British" only seem to be the one's having that sort of line "hurled" at us.

You have'nt been introduced to I Ate Yoko Ono yet have you? A british member I believe

Originally posted by Super Tourer
However, to re-iterate what Adam said earlier, if members object to the content of a thread or post, use the report tab to inform us or PM one of the mods directly.

This has to be the most under-used fuction at Ten-tenths (apart form the very good 'ignore' feature). If you have a problem, hit the warn button.

Originally posted by Super Tourer
Some valid points made, but I don't think the F1 forum is particularly the place to get into a racism in sport debate.

Closed.

I'll re-open this thread for discussion (as long as it's nice), but it belongs in Announcements and feedback.


WOW! Now thats a RANT!

[Mark Webber]

Originally posted by Mr V
I must admit i don't recall people saying.....

(Austrailian poster X) only supports Mark Webber because he's Australian.

or

(Canadian poster X) only supports Jacques Villeneuve because he's Canadain.

Imo, when these posts appear, making these claims against British posters, it ammounts to "attacking the poster" and must stop.

I don't remember ever attacking anyone V ?

I gather you are refering to me ?

[Wrex]

I think thats where the 'oversensative' tag comes from.

I think V is refering to fans in a broad way.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
I don't remember ever attacking anyone V ?

I gather you are refering to me ?

Wasn't referring to you at all, check your PM's.

[Pitstop]

Posted by Boots

"I don't sense any anti-German vibe among any of the posters here, unless we count the expression 'That German Fellow' as being an insult - and the person who came up with that isn't British - much of the world has reason to be upset with German actions of the 30s".


What the dickens has the last part of that statement to do with anything here?

I find it very, very offensive, shortsighted and uneducated.

[Mark Webber]

have done Mr V

thanx for clearing it up for me

[Mr V]

Originally posted by F3lollipops


I attend a large number and variety of race meetings in different countries each year and the one and only time I have ever encountered an example of such a problem was at Silverstone when Michael Schumacher broke his leg. There were a large number of people in the crowd who cheered when he crashed - something which made me feel physically sick –

I feel that i should "defend" this.

I was at Silverstone that day, and yes, the crowd did cheer when Michael went off, but this was not a nationalistic thing, it was something that happens when a main rival went off.

I can assure you that the crowd soon quietened down when they understood the severity of the situation, after all, no fan wants to see a driver injured.

Silverstone 99 is not the only time i've seen the crowd cheer when a driver went off, i point you t these examples....

Hockenheim 1995 Damon goes off after wheel bearing failure, crowd goes mental as Michael now leads.

Nurburgring 1995 Damon crashes out, crowd goes mental because Michaels almost certain of the WDC.

Monza 1996 Damon goes out after clipping tyres, tifosi goes mental as there more chance of a Ferrari victory.

Monza 1998 Mika spins off thus handing victory to Michael, chance of second place to Eddie, also in a Ferrari, crowd goes mental.

Monza 1999 Mika spins out of the race, crowd goes mental.

The only difference between the examples above and Silverstone 1999 was that, unfortunatly, Michael was hurt, but i can assure you that nobody thought that he was about to injure himself as he headed towards the tyres.

[Smokey 6 litre]

I am an Englishman, and bloody proud of it too, BUT i dont hate TGF because he's German and we had a war with them 50+ years ago, i hate him because i think he's a cheating . I watched Adelaide '94 and that was it as fas as i was concerned.

I liked HHF and he was German, RS is German and i dont hate him too much.

Oliver Panis is French, and we English often dont get along with them too well, but still i dont mind him.

A drivers nationallity is irrelvant imho, its what he does that really matter.