Rise In The Number of Championships for 2004

[PTs Bro]

Matt James in Motorsport News,today, reports that despite all the bluster from the Clubs and the MSA there has still been an increase in the number of championships and that no less than 164 will commence in a couple of weeks time, when the season kicks off.

Is it just me or have the powers that be "lost the plot" and are afraid to take difficult and unpopular decisions to "scrap" a number of categories for the long term health of the sport.

Their approach seems to be to still harp on about the "Yellow Card" being given to championships that don't muster a pre-requisite 16 cars and then give that series a further twelve months to put things in order.

Also they seem to hiding behing the assumption that by making organisers cough up the full circuit fees, even if the grids are low, that they will ensure that grids are merged (if safe to do so) and that the resultant conglomeration will be worthwhile and entertaining.

For "Gods Sake" this was apparently being practiced over at least the last couple of seasons and all that has happened to date is that the grids have reduced the championships have increased, costs have risen and "Jo Public" has desserted the sport because it is basically a sorry excuse for entertainment and does not now represent good value for the spectators money, which was certainly not the case a few years ago.

It appears that those in control are inept and seem to be content with watching circuit motorsport sink pathetically beneath the waves and will no doubt blame the circuit owners and the ambivulence of the competitors for the final demise, which i'm sad to say does not seem so far off.Such ineptitude in a large industry in the "Real World" would have seen all of those concerned turned out to pasture and some proper "hard nosed" business men take over....(a la Jonathon Palmer).

I know that this type of thread has been posted on a number of occassions but then there appeared to be hope in that there was apparently a move towards the rationalisation of categories, now that hope seems to have been false and there appears to be no headway being made.

I think that there should be no more than 60 -80 categories for the competitor to choose from, which will take us to approximately the position that the sport was in at the beginning of the nineties.From my recollection there were healthy grids on the national and club scene and a recognised pathway to the top for the serious competitor.A race meeting then used to attract moderate to large crowds and you could expect 10 or 12 races, certainly no fewer than 10.

What do you lot think to the latest news and do you think that a website such as this could be used to muster a lobby group which could pressure the suits into taking positive action THIS YEAR befor it is too late.

I for one have decided to spend a liitle more time enjoying the HEALTHY autograss scene this year.

[Red Dog]

I am surprised that the number of championships has doubled in the last 10 years. My CLUB (750MC) is running 11 championships and 2 series which I think is about 3 more than 10 years ago.

The point is though, all these Championships (and series) will only last as long as there are entries. 2 years ago sports 2000 (formerly Formula 1300) was dropped due to lack of entries, and no doubt they've headed off to the BRSCC. The club has to stay in the black and has been very succesful at devising or attracting new interest (Locost, Stock Hatch, RGB's to some extent, and they underpin the club with their big entry lists.

The thing that puzzles me is the concern about spectators. Do they really contribute to the support of the meeting that much? most of them seem to be pit crew, and families thereof, for whom most of the tickets are provided free of charge. It would be interesting to know what the paying gate is at Snetterton in late October. Does anyone have access to that info?

If getting more spectators in would reduce the entry fees then I'm all for it. But would it?

At Oulton last year there were the following entries:-
Stock Hatch 62
Roadsports 14
Locost 22

[Red Dog]

Ooops, something went wrong there and I ran out of time to edit.

So to continue....

Ignore the Locost number above, it's wrong
Locost 43
750 formula 16
Kit Cars 27
F 4 12
Hot Hatch 23

Total 197 at an average entry fee of £135

thats £26,595 to the club. I don't know what the circuit hire costs but the minimum entry for a viable meeting is 120 cars which = £16,200, so probably not far off that.
Series sponsorship is not very large so not a big factor.

If 2000 spectators pay a tenner each it adds 20,000 to the take. Question is, how is gate divided? Does it go to the club or the circuit? At the 8 clubs the entry was free, suggesting it went to the club, so maybe that generosity led to their demise.

Does anyone know about this stuff?

[PTs Bro]

I'd just like to apologise to the 750mc fraternity, they are the exception in this sad state of affairs, maybe because they are more business minded and not afraid to axe classes that are not viable and are therefore a threat to the clubs viability overall.

My rant refers primarily to the MSA and also the BRSCC, BARC and the BRDC.

Pretty well the only circuit racing that looks worthwhile going to this year is that offered by the 750mc and so I shall be there......Roll on 14th March.

[greenamex2]

164 championships!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is just completely totally and utterly STUPID.

I can't even begin to imagine how you can come up with 164 combinations of regulations without any significant overlap which is, I believe, one of the pre-reqs for having a championship.

I hate to say this but we really need a large club to go bust as I can't see anything else improving the situation.

If things carry on like this then many more will give up racing go over to track days.

'Interesting' times.

[Bob Pearson]

I think you are right Denis. It sounds harsh I know, but with the MSA's failure to control the introduction of new formulas the demise of one of the clubs is our only hope of salvation.

[Keith Wheeler]

Got to say that things don't look good and drastic action is needed, which should come from the MSA.
If things don't improve I can see a situation where the circuits will take a lead and invite the championships that offer the best entertainment and attract the most spectators. Poorly supported championships/series will either die through lack of opportunities to race, or race behind closed doors at higher cost so that the circuit covers all it's costs for that meeting (making meetings closed to the public will reduce costs for the circuits).

[diz]

Remember the Brands Hatch circuits own organising clubs a few years ago.

JP and MSV could look at that route, who knows what their plans might be, but a total reorganisation of what they were prepared to run could be on the cards and the MSA would probably cave in to their demands.

Then where would BRSCC be? BARC and BRDC could still organise on their own tracks, but times change.

BTW Nostalgia is not what it used to be

[greenamex2]

If the circuits controlled the racing then anyone with a car older a couple of years will have to put it in a garage for twenty years until it becomes a 'classic'.

If you don't believe this will happen the circuits have already tried this a couple of times.

Of course you could always do a one make series and scrap the entire car every four years.

[Keith Wheeler]

Maybe if the 'premier' (make your own choices) circuits picked up the championships they wanted, the remaining circuits could host the rest. They would still get the track hire fee, but could make their own choice about whether to allow in spectators or not.

[avro]

If we were to say that any championship that cannot predict / gaurantee by March 1st more than 14 - 16 entries for every race, would have its MSA licence removed, what and how many series would not continue ?.

Is this the only way that we will be able to cut down on the number of championships how ever painful it is time for hard decisions to be made ?.

[loungelizard]

Everybody agrees that there are too many Championships but I do not think th eblam lies entirley with the MSA. Even if something is granted a MSA liscence to be a Championship it does not mean that it has to be run by anyone. The BARC, BRSCC etc do not have to put races on for anything they do not want to if they do not think that the money in entry fees will be there. As to Championships that are very similar, again it is down to the Clubs running meetings to ensure that this is avoided as much as possible. It does not make economic sense to have two meetings on the same day by different Clubs that your car is eligible for. They should get together and amalgamate Championships or series that are very similar. It is mostly modified saloons Championships that are the culprits here. I beleive that if I had a BMW there would be almost 7 or 8 Championships that I could enter, obviously the car would not be a front runner in all, but there should be no more than 3 choices.

[redshoes]

Red Rog, re the gate proceeds, everything goes to the circuits. Bringing in more (paying) spectators wouldn't directly reduce entry fees but there's a good arguement that if the circuits were getting more gate revenue they would need to charge the club renting the track less, who could in turn charge it's members less in entry fees.

[ss_collins]

I'd just like to apologise to the 750mc fraternity, they are the exception in this sad state of affairs, maybe because they are more business minded and not afraid to axe classes that are not viable and are therefore a threat to the clubs viability overall.



I think its because the 750mc are less business minded and actually know the sport well. You just know a 750MC grid will be large and provide a good race (with the exception of sports 1000 - but that will grow massivley in the next few years)

But I suspect its the BRSCC who may be the worst offenders...

[Keith Wheeler]

Don't forget that the circuits have to promote the meetings and the more spectators that come in the more stewards, car parkers, ticket sellers, toilet cleaners, etc, etc are reqired, which also costs the circuits extra money.
The high profile meetings that should bring in the spectators (TOCA, Superbikes) charge the circuits tens of thousands of pounds just to turn up, a point raised by Jonathon Palmer.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Keith Wheeler
Don't forget that the circuits have to promote the meetings and the more spectators that come in the more stewards, car parkers, ticket sellers, toilet cleaners, etc, etc are reqired, which also costs the circuits extra money.

How many more spectators do you need to pay the cost of employing somebody for a day at minimum wage? Not many!

[johnw]

Originally posted by Red Dog
........Total 197 at an average entry fee of £135

thats £26,595 to the club. I don't know what the circuit hire costs but the minimum entry for a viable meeting is 120 cars which = £16,200, so probably not far off that.
Series sponsorship is not very large so not a big factor.

If 2000 spectators pay a tenner each it adds 20,000 to the take. Question is, how is gate divided? Does it go to the club or the circuit? At the 8 clubs the entry was free, suggesting it went to the club, so maybe that generosity led to their demise.
Does anyone know about this stuff?

Red Dog - Hire costs
Brands Indy £18,000
Cadwell £7,000
Oulton £14,000
Snetterton £9,000

As mentioned elsewhere the gate money belongs to the circuit, unless a club chooses to buy it for a meeting. I wouldn't want to take that risk, so cannot blame the clubs for not doing so.

I can't agree with Redshoes that the circuit owners would reduce the hire cost if the gate receipts increased. They hire the circuits at a rate which relates to their overheads. (Rates alone at BH are £700,000 pa) I imagine that JP is looking at spectators to make the business a profItable one, given that Octagon made a £3 million loss.

From what we read in the press, JP is telling the BTCC that he will not be paying them to perform anymore, so there is a fundamental change in racing as we have known it.

The number of championships is indeed crazy. The series I run in has taken steps to integrate with another, by having an invitation class. Hopefully this should provide full grids. Problem is that without everyone else doing the same, we end up subsidising the smaller grids. I'm disappointed (more than that really, but this is a family forum) that we are racing this year with such as FW which has only 16 cars. I see that there is a new MX5 series, so imagine that this will take some time to get up to a sensible grid.

Loungelizard -If you or anyone else has a BMW to race and are willing to run on treaded tyres, look no further than the Kumho series. Our class structure enables you to race almost any model without spending a fortune on engine mods yet giving a chance of success.


Red Dog - the concern re spectators is that this represents the only possibility of reducing the cost to the club racer. We have no control over the costs of fuel, oil, tryes, brakes accommodation etc etc. IF and it's a big IF, we can provide better entertainment both on and off track and bring in and keep spectators, it might provide the incentive to our organising clubs to promote meetings, get some income and reduce our entry fees. 10,000 spectators at £2 head would cover the circuit hire charge at Brands and make entry fees about £60.

I believe that it's a myth that closed door meetings would be cheaper. Where does the saving come from?

We need to take some responsibility for fixing these problems ourselves as it doesn't seem likely that the MSA, or even the organising clubs are intent on doing so.

[Ian Fisher]

Guys,

Its good to hear these views and that your comments are driven by the desire to see motor racing prosper in the UK. 164 championships does seem a lot, and I agree there needs to be stringent criteria to justify any new championship, but I do think its easy to criticise, and the BRSCC seem to be coming in for most of the flack. I am not active enough within the BRSCC to judge whether this criticism is fully justified, but I think their intentions are well meaning, and I haven't had cause to complain in the organisation or running of a meeting in the 2 years I have been competing.

Do you think part of the problem is to do with the lack of communication / co-operation across the BARC, BRSCC & BRDC?

[ss_collins]

To put another spin on it - is there really a need for the BRSCC, BARC and BRDC? perhaps thier national competition arms should unite. (regional groups seem healthy enough).

[archibold]

The other major issue as a competitor is not just the dilution of quantity in terms of grid size but just as importantly in terms of quality. Very few series have any depth of quality in driving which has to be due to the dilution of quick drivers across so many series....

archibold

[greenamex2]

Ian Fisher - The BRSCC's intentions are very well meaning. They mean to directly compete with other clubs for their membership.

You could say that this is totally fair in a free market and that the strongest club will survive.

On the other hand you could say that the club racing market can't cope with being a proper free market and needs some controls put in place to protect it.

I suppose the side of the fence you sit on will depend on your own personal circumstances.

If you are in a well supported series you probably believe in a free market.

If you are in a not so well supported series but could see the benefits of merging half a dozen series to make one very well supported one but don't want to wait for market forces to operate then you probably want some controls put in place.

If you have got so much money that you can afford to just throw a car away and buy a new one then you probably can afford to rely on market forces.

If you haven't then you can't.

[Ian Fisher]

Archibald,

Its a fair point, but my opinion is this. The majority of competitors at true 'Club' level race because they enjoy doing it. Having a mix of cars / drivers of differing speeds / abilities should not necessarily dilute the competitors nor spectators enjoyment. I can remember many fantastic races where (only) 2 cars have been really dicing (and not necessarily for the lead). As a compeititor running on a very limited budget, I know one reasonably size accident, and that's my year ended. Consequently, rubbing doors / wings / bumpers with a car into a corner just wouldn't work for me, and I don't think there's much skill in that anyway.... Therefore it suits me to race in a Championship where cars from different classes get spread out during the race. Everyone still tries hard and gives their best, and largely know whether an overtaking move is acceptable or not. I have watched these races and they are (mostly) great fun to watch. I can't vouch for every series though. For drivers who are seeking a 'profession' there are series that are more geared to attract such drivers (i.e. BTCC, Clio's, FPA, GT's etc), where the series are more actively promoted (and consequenlty cost more). I think spectators want to see a good race, and as along as cars / drivers are of even ability / pace, I don't think it matters whether they are 'professional' level or 'amateur' level. As I say, its only my opinion.

[archibold]

Hi Denis

I'm gonna disagree with you on this point:

"If you are in a not so well supported series but could see the benefits of merging half a dozen series to make one very well supported one but don't want to wait for market forces to operate then you probably want some controls put in place."

In my small experience the people in the less well supported series are really afraid of getting merged as they think they may be the slower element of the grid and will never race for a flag win.

Experienced this last year with a series, they had an opportunity to merge with another series where both series had about 12-16 cars to make full grids and have some bargaining power with the clubs for better races etc. (the cars are very similar performance wise but different marque's). They rejected it.

The well supported series don't really care as they have a strong position in which to approach the club and get good meetings/tracks.

The solution has to be forced from a top-down perspective and there will be a lot of complaining...it's never going to happen from the bottom-up...

Archibold

[Ian Fisher]

Denis,

I hear what your saying. The point I was alluding to was that if each club purely looks after its own interests, then everyone suffers (eventually). Surely there's a joint onus on the Clubs and the RACMSA?

[archibold]

Hi Ian

I've only been racing for four years as an amateur so can't say I've actually met any spectator's that are not there with someone who is racing

Even as an amateur I still want to feel I am racing against quality (trying to be competitive) and not merely "pot hunting" in a series. The more quality drivers I'm racing with the more I will learn.

All my own opinion of course I'm sure other people go racing for other reasons.

Archibold