MS, safety car fiasco

[freud]

Can someone please let me know how come MS was able to come out in lead after his first pit-stops?

Did the safety car actually passed him and allowed him to stay ay #1 ??

[Adam43]

With the accident the speeds on the track were slower than the speeds in the pit lane. So Michael could come in refule and still get out ahead of the BARs.

Not a fiasco. Far from it (unless you consider BAR keeping both cars out!).

Even Rubens managed to stay quite high up despite having to queue.

[Mr V]

Surely MS came in as the safety car was waiting on the main straight? Which would have meant that he came out behind it?

[Knowlesy]

I can't get my head round it at all!

[freud]

My undertanding is that when MS came in the pits, the safety car wasnt on track and everyone passed him. Then they were slowed by the safety car. MS came out ahead of them and didnt go round to join them at the last position. Instead the safety car passed him and allowed him to join at first.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Not a fiasco. Far from it (unless you consider BAR keeping both cars out!).

The BAR engineering has made tremendous strides but the bonehead decisions such as the one made today continue to frustrate their fans and drivers alike. They still seem ill prepared for the unexpected and this has been going on since DR took over.

[Bleu]

I heard a rumour that as soon as the information of the SC came, Rubens slowed (and held the pack) and Michael was able to take enough advantage to stay ahead after his pit stop.

BARs slowed also because they had to go past Ralf's wreck. Pitting cars didn't need to do that (except the drivers behind Ralf on the lap he crashed)

[Dani Filth]

quite posible he slowed . there was no point in sticking to MS's gearbox .... in the pitlale . he would have lost more time

[Adam43]

Clever then?

[Raven]

Does seem a bit of a head scratcher. He didn't have more than 10 seconds on Sato did he, so they must have been moving really slowly on track.

[Dani Filth]

another SC .. could it be possible that Schumacher passed Rubens .. before the start-finish line ?? . does anybody have a picture ??

[Tweed]

Originally posted by Dani Filth
another SC .. could it be possible that Schumacher passed Rubens .. before the start-finish line ?? . does anybody have a picture ??

I thought that aswell, especially when the timing screens on TV showed 'M Schumacher' as leading as soon as they both crossed the line

[freud]

Thanks for the pic.. Dani.

Again, it doesnt explain why MS was leading the nextlap behind the safety car. Did he come out exactly behind the SC or just in front so that the SC passed him and he took the lead? Or did he come out in between other cars and they let him take the #1 spot..

[Adam43]

I split the so close picture, different topic thta warrents its own thread

[Mackmot]

I think they should have a pit lane closed rule like in IRL which means that you dont get a massive advantage if you are leading by a massive amount

[Adam43]

I think they should leave it as it is. Anyone can stop if they want. Also if you are leading by a massive amount it is quite fair that you can continue the advantage.

This one was just an odd one. Michael getting in and out before Sato came round on track is unusual.

[BootsOntheSide]

Michael already had a good lead over Rubens (and thus Sato)when he went into the the pits, and Takuma had to negotiate Ralf's wreckage. It was tight, but did happen legitimately. BAR's tactical error of not pitting at least one car was amazing - Takku could've got 2nd otherwise. This, coupled with the way they left Sato out there at Moanco, causing a potentially serious accident, don't reflect well on the team.

[Super Tourer]

With BAR it was an example of the 'team' not being able to run the race at the same level as Ferrari.

As we've mentioned in some of the BAR threads, building a competitve car and driver line up is only one element of winning races, and we have questioned before how BAR's lack of front running experience would hold up against MS and Ross Brawn over the course of a race distance.

On this ocassion they dropped the ball, it was pretty obvious that the safety car for Ralf's accident was going to be out for at least several laps, so you had to take the opportunity to stop.

Pity, as Sato was the fastest car on the track at several points during the race, I would have loved to see the reaction of each of them had Taku lined up MS for a pass.

[Kicking-back]

If we assume Sato lost 20-30 seconds by not pitting at the time, he could've won the race.

[avsfan733]

Originally posted by Dani Filth
quite posible he slowed . there was no point in sticking to MS's gearbox .... in the pitlale . he would have lost more time

Ferrari Immediately made the dicision to pit both cars.
Because the safety car was out there was no passing. SO...Rubens slows just enough so that he arrives at the pits just as MS leaves, a secondary factor was that this created a very large gap between Michael and the third place car. then as he left the pits Sato (3rd place) wasn't at fullspeed because he had to pick through the wreckage and all of a sudden MS is in first place again thanks to a beautifal piece of strategery

[brightline]

I rarely post in the F1 forum, but shouldn't Rubens be penalised if he wasn't staying with the pack (i.e. MS) or keeping the speed of the safety car?

Is it not the leader that dictates the pace behind the Safety Car? That would have been Michael's pace which would have been the pit speed limit 62mph I believe. Rubens would not be the leader if MS came out in the lead(therefore not controlling the field), so if Rubens wasn't at least doing close to pit speed limit creating a huge gap shouldn't he be blamed or am I just crazy?

No matter how you slice it, a leader should never be able to pit under full course caution and still keep the lead behind the safety car.

[Gt_R]

I don't think Sato would have won the race. Third is the best he could have managed IMO.

Haha.. "fiasco" i see. It's more likely a beatifully placed strategic call.

I think the main part that costs Sato is the debris on the accident site really forced the drivers to slow alot..even slower than the pit lane speed limit...Hence, considering the short time MS stayed stationary...the time lost relative on the circuit costs Sato and BAR dearly.

In any case, i think even Ferrari expected BAR to call in Sato and Button, but for reasons, BAR didn't.

[Saltire]

My understanding of the rules (below), in this instance is that MS was indeed the race leader when the SC was deployed. It was then his responsibility to bunch up the field, and had he not pitted would have done so and made his way up behind the SC.
However, did he not relinquish his lead when he pitted? Everyone left out on track should have then assumed their various track positions - i.e. Sato 1st Jenson 2nd etc. All the guys in the pits (and I include Kimi, DC, Trulli, Panis etc. [9 in total including MS]) should surely then have to wait while the cars on track passed by the pit exit, and then rejoined?
As I see it, MS took advantage of the fact that there was so much debris from Half's accident, that he was able to finish his pit stop and rejoin back in 1st place. I just cannot see how he is allowed to do this given the FIA sporting rules regarding the SC.
And I am mystified as to why the other teams haven't said anything about it. Perhaps because they all did it?
Maybe I'm completely wrong, and they were all allowed to do it, but I'd like someone to explain how, using the FIA rules, and in words of no more than two syllables.


Rules regardig the Safety Car, from the FIA web site:

164) (a) The FIA safety car will be driven by an experienced circuit driver. It will carry an FIA
observer capable of recognising all the competing cars, who is in permanent radio contact
with race control.

b) 30 minutes before the race start time the safety car will take up position at the front of the
grid and remain there until the five minute signal is given. At this point (except under o)
below) it will cover a whole lap of the circuit and enter the pit lane.

c) The safety car may be brought into operation to neutralise a race upon the decision of the
clerk of the course.
It will be used only if competitors or officials are in immediate physical danger but the
circumstances are not such as to necessitate stopping the race.

d) When the order is given to deploy the safety car, all observer's posts will display waved
yellow flags and a board "SC" which shall be maintained until the intervention is over.

e) During the race, the safety car with its orange lights on, will start from the pit lane and will
join the track regardless of where the race leader is.

f) All the competing cars will form up in line behind the safety car no more than 5 car lengths
apart. All overtaking on the track is forbidden (except under o) below), unless a car is
signalled to do so from the safety car.

g) When ordered to do so by the clerk of the course the observer in the car will use a green
light to signal to any cars between it and the race leader that they should pass. These cars
will continue at reduced speed and without overtaking until they reach the line of cars
behind the safety car.

h) The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are
lined up behind him.
Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except
under j) below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.

i) While the safety car is in operation, competing cars may enter the pit lane, but may only
rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times
except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing
the pit exit . A car rejoining the track must proceed at reduced speed until it reaches the
end of the line of cars behind the safety car.

j) When the clerk of the course calls in the safety car, it must extinguish its orange lights, this
will be the signal to the drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if
necessary, fall more than five car lengths behind it. As the safety car is approaching the pit
entry the yellow flags and SC boards at the observer's posts will be withdrawn and waved
green flags will be displayed for no more than one lap.

k) Green flags and lights will be shown when the safety car has pulled off the circuit but
overtaking remains forbidden until the cars cross the Line. However, any car which slows
with an obvious problem may be overtaken.

[Kicking-back]

No rules have been broken.

[shiny side up!]

Yeah, I just don't see any rules broken here. I am by no means a Ferrari apologist, but what they did was pretty brilliant...

There was no incentive for Rubens to be on TGF's gearbox if both were going to pit under the SC. So Rubens cools it whilst MS pits, so he doesn't lose any more time than necessary sitting still in the pits awaiting TGF's departure (which would've played hell on his engine/brakes/whatever). Nobody can pass Rubens under the SC, and since the SC picks up the leader after pit exit, there is no reason for TGF to wait for the field to go by before rejoining, as he was still the rightful leader. No cheating or inpropriary there.

If Sato had pitted as well, he wouldn't have hounded MS after the SC period because he wouldn't have been lighter on fuel, and as a result would probably still finish third...