Sauber to drop the Ferrari engines in 06?

[Snapple]

Interesting read, also says Ferrari are rumoured to be in negotiations to supply Midland F1 with customer engines.

http://www.sportnetwork.net/main/s200/st63280.htm

[Raglanparade]

I have a feeling Sauber may have irrated Ferrari by switching to Michelin rubber, and going against them about the testing ban.

It will be interesting to see that... If Midland take on ferrari power, the switch to Bridgestone rubber ?? it may happen.

As for Sauber.. I think the Proton way is the most likely method. But dont underestimate Toyota. Without having to power Jordan, they will have some spare capacity.

[nick_andrews]

Wasnt the news that sauber were to discontinue their customer engines from ferrari a few months ago?

[DKGandBH]

Sauber Lamborghini...

DKGandBH

[Logrence]

Sauber have been talking with Mercedes for a few years, but it's come to nought - they have a "special relationship" together...but I also heard during the year that BMW were putting the feelers out.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Well if Petronas can afford to pay for the Ferrari blocks then they can afford any other power plant on the grid. Just a case of convincing the marques to supply them.

I'd love to see a Sauber-Mercedes again, although I suspect DubaiF1 (if they ever exsist past the press release) have first dibs on those.

Haven't Sauber with Petronas and Proton been tooling around trying to decide if manufactoring their own engine will be a good idea for the past few years? Who knows, maybe the VW/Audi rumours will start again.

[Gt_R]

Considering that the Ferrari unit that Sauber enjoys, which is effectively at the start of the season the same as factory Ferrari units and a couple of updates old during the season, the Ferrari unit is one of the "treasures" that Sauber have over other privateer teams (another includes the new windtunnel).

I think that Ferrari may be unhappy with the method PS handled the situation over test limits and tyres, and should there not be an improvement in relations over the next season, the Sauber-Ferrari relationship will cease.

If that happens, i hope that Sauber doesn't attempt to go it alone. Designing their own engine would be a very risky thing to do and serve to ruin everything Sauber built up over these years. Unless they are extremely confident and acquire the required expertise, it is not a wise choice. (Although they "might" perhaps evolve into a full in-house team themselves like Ferrari)

So what are the alternatives? New cheaper engine deals may be available. Sauber could do well negotiating for Mercedes/Toyota engines, and may even negotiate for a semi-works unit which is to the same spec/updates as the works team. If they are extremely lucky, who knows ... maybe VW group may climb on board, or what i'm speculating... IF Williams fail to perform to standard next year and beyond, and Sauber continues to invest in foundation and infrastructure, BMW may be tempted to buy out Sauber.

[Gabrio]

I do not think that Sauber will drop the Ferrari engines. IMO this story must have been leaked by Sauber and Ferrari themselves so that Michelin does not bark too much about Sauber giving tyres info to Ferrari....Midland has requested engines to Ferrari and it looks like contract is in an advanced stage.

[N I Tram]

Toyota would be taking a risk by offering their engines to Sauber. Unless they improve enough this year to the point where they can be sure they can beat Sauber with equal engines, they would be ill-advised to do soemthing which could be extremely negative publicity-wise.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

True, but it's generally standard practise for customer engines to be slightly de-tuned to avoid such embarresments.

[Glen]

I don't believe they would need to de-tune the engines for fear of embarassment. Come the end of this season, I think we'll see how much of a non issue that would be, between Toyota and Sauber. Sauber already have a very competitive engine package, but they lack the car to translate that into big results. Toyota's car will be very good this year - the first all-Gascoyne car... Sauber can only get left behind. Sad, but inevitable.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

I have to agree with you on that Glen, I'd be very surprised if Toyota didn't produce at least one shock result this season.

[Glen]

Consistent point scorers - in the 5th, 6th sort of zone I reckon. A podium is still a big challenge however.

[Kirk]

I disagree that any of this is linked to the Ferrari-Sauber conflicting opinions on testing and tyres. But merely the economic reality that future engines in F1 will be cheaper to manufacter and Sauber will be out shopping. They could well stick with Ferrari for engine supply, but certainly nowhere near the reported current price tag per unit.

[Gabrio]

I still think there is no conflict at all.....

[mabs_nsx]

I think Honda should enter with a second team in 2006, mabye with sauber.
1.BAR-Honda
2.Sauber-Honda

[BSchneiderFan]

I suspect Honda's experience of supplying both Jordan and BAR will have put them off the idea. Besides, Honda are so intimately involved with BAR that they might view supplying a second team, even on a purely commercial basis, as an unnecessary distraction.

All of that said, it would give them more scope to place engineers in F1, which is something on which they've always been very keen.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Gabrio

I still think there is no conflict at all.....

Yeah, I don't buy the conspiracy theory on this one either. Sauber plumb 20 odd million dollars into Ferrari's budget every year, I doubt Jean Todt is to concerned with what Sauber do providing the cheques keep coming in.

Going back to what Kirk mentioned, Toyota are selling engines nearly $10m cheaper than Ferrari... Mr. Sauber would be a fool not to at least be considering changing powerplants.

[BSchneiderFan]

And Peter Sauber is certainly not a fool.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Exactly.

Freeing up $10m on the budget must be a great option to have.

[BootsOntheSide]

The Toyota engine may feasibly be better than the Ferrari one by 2006 in any case, so he may make a double gain. I'm not sure what Peter's thinking in the long term. While they use passed-down Ferrari technology, they have no hope of becoming regualr challengers - now that they've gone over to Michelin, they can't even get a fluke result such as US 2003 or Belgium last year on Bridgestone-dominated days.

However, if some of the manufacturers do leave, either for the GPWC or out of boredom or commercial frustrations, Sauber would be, on paper, the second-best team left after Ferrari, and with the wind tunnel they have the potential to produce great cars (although they don't seem to have this year), and should easily have Midland, Red Bull and Minardi covered for the forseeable future. Looking long-term might be a good option at this stage.

[Logrence]

Originally Posted by Silk Cut Jaguar

Freeing up $10m on the budget must be a great option to have.

That's chump change at Ferrari.

The only reason Ferrari give anyone engines is to have an extra vote in meetings.

[Kirk]

[QUOTE=BootsOntheSide]The Toyota engine may feasibly be better than the Ferrari one by 2006 in any case, so he may make a double gain. I'm not sure what Peter's thinking in the long term. While they use passed-down Ferrari technology, they have no hope of becoming regualr challengers - now that they've gone over to Michelin, they can't even get a fluke result such as US 2003 or Belgium last year on Bridgestone-dominated days.
QUOTE]
Admittedly Peter's decision to run Michelins is a bit of a gamble but I think it does consititute long term thinking. Maybe more importantly it also reflects his confidence that his team has turned a corner and is ready to compete at a higher level. The new tyre rule complicates matters somewhat. However it does appear that it is not only Sauber that is struggling to come to grips (pardon the pun) with the one tyre rule. As JV alluded to, it will likely be 4 or 5 races before most teams have adapted and until then we are likely in for surprises. As for the Ferrari engine, I think PS would gladly keep that arrangement for the right price but he is keeping that option open. Smart, I'd say.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Logrence

That's chump change at Ferrari.

The only reason Ferrari give anyone engines is to have an extra vote in meetings.

I was referring to Sauber's books, not Ferrari's. I know Petronas pay for the engines but I'd suspect they would divert the money back into Sauber rather than keeping the savings themselves.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by Logrence

That's chump change at Ferrari.

The only reason Ferrari give anyone engines is to have an extra vote in meetings.

Well yeah, PS certainly has towed the line with the tyre thing and the testing deal.... Yeah...

Codswallop!