Team BOC.... Not Happy Jan!!

[GTRMagic]

From RaceNews:

TEAM BOC
19 Mar 05
Statement From Team BOC On Bowe Drive Through Penalty

Statement From Team BOC On Bowe Drive Through Penalty

In race one of the Clipsal 500 today, John Bowe in the #12 Team BOC Falcon was awarded a drive through penalty on lap 34 for allegedly having an extra crew member working on his car during the compulsory pit stop for fuel.

Bowe served the penalty which relegated him from 13th position at the time, to 25th.

The penalty was fiercely argued by Team Manager Kim Jones who was adamant the penalty was incorrect and unfair.

At a stewards hearing into the incident this evening it was deemed that whilst evidence provided by both parties indicated that a breach may not have actually occurred, there was no rule available to the stewards to reinstate the lost time that Bowe was penalised.

“Obviously we are disappointed that nothing can be done to overturn the penalty that was awarded to John [Bowe],” said Kim Jones.

“We are very clear in our own minds that we did absolutely nothing wrong. V8 Supercars is competitive enough without having to deal with undue penalties,” Jones added.

“According to the stewards there is no recourse in this case, so it’s matter of getting on with the job of racing tomorrow,” Jones concluded.

John Bowe had no further comment on the issue.

So precisely how will the CAMS people redress a situation that was incorrectly interpreted, and a penalty applied?

Its not like they can give the places back and rerun Mr Bowe's race thru the time machine....

Perhaps penalties such as these should not be drive thrus, instead being time penalties at race's end once the officials are comfortable a breach has actually occurred.

(By the by... anyone seen Mr Jones on the BOC ads today... he was very presentable, natural even.... miles better than Lowndes' Betta ads...)

[hml2777]

we will have to wait to see the outcome of that little one

[GTRMagic]

I am curious as to who the Judge of Fact is regarding these incidents.

Do they have a separate official at every pit box, to make sure the legal number of people, and the legal volume/type of equipment is being used?

If so.. how is this type of thing different from an interpretational view from a corner marshall, where one driver touches another and a report is required?

The breach is not one that can be mechanically measured. i.e. you cant put a radar gun at the end of pitlane to count how many people are across the pit control line during a stop... so surely it requires a report, and input from several sources before handing out a penalty of this nature??

Our friends at CAMS may be patting themselves on the back for making their processes somewhat more transparent... but it usually takes a stuff up to make corrective actions happen... which is what is needed to be achieved in this case.

[hml2777]

That is a very good call, GTR

[retro]

Why not just wait until the race is over and if the rule has been broken dock them some time. What they did was a bit harsh imho.

[GTRMagic]

Totally agree retro... if this is going to be the next "big thing" in officiating this year, then perhaps a standard network of cameras in the pit area is also required, from several angles, to capture the whole event.

In the NASCAR example, where this concept seems to have been borrowed from, it is very easy on an oval circuit to count the number of people who have to jump a wall... here, where the garage can also be a sponsor staging area too, its not quite so clear cut

[Hazza]

Like NASCAR do they have an official for every box? Maybe they should look into that?

Maybe they should mount CCTV cameras above the boxes to review pitlane infringements...

[PACK LEADER]

After the Tassie Round last year with the placings ,, you would have thought that changing JBs position would be Easy due to there stuff up,

[retro]

Originally Posted by Hazza

Like NASCAR do they have an official for every box? Maybe they should look into that?

Maybe they should mount CCTV cameras above the boxes to review pitlane infringements...

At the Nascar races most if not all teams video their own pit stops for future reference and for training......and yes they have a Nascar official at every pit and that guy has permission to hold a car if he see's a breach.

I thought the new tyre stops were pretty good today.

[frederick]

Since the aim of the game is actually POINTS all they need to do is award JB the appropriate number of points for the places lost. They don't have to deprive anybody else of points to do so.

[brchi17]

Originally Posted by frederick

Since the aim of the game is actually POINTS all they need to do is award JB the appropriate number of points for the places lost. They don't have to deprive anybody else of points to do so.

Nice idea & I would think that a readdress of the lost points would be fair. Problem is avesco definitely will not do it as first it means that have to admit they were wrong, like that’s ever going to happen…...

cheers.

[Sandgroper]

If the driver it deemed to not be incorrect in the cams hearing, reinstate him up the field from where he finished with the time lost for the drive through. I guess there is never a good scenario with this, to many variables.

[deeks6]

All of which indicates the most sensible (not to be used normally in the same sentence as CAMS) way to do things - decide AFTER the race and dock points/positions/suspend etc.
Drive-through wreck your race and weekend and this is not the first one to be proven or thought wrong.
In this case, Bowe should be given 12 places worth of points 9even though he would have probably finished closer than 13th).

[Falcadore]

The fault was not with AVESCO so admitting wrongness is not even relevant.

As for the magic awarding of points... how many? How many points did he loose? Would he have kept those places? Might another car have suddenly arrived in the drivers door late in the race?

You can't just award points for such a situation. Tennis players don't get line calls back. You have to take it on the chin and move on.

[fordo]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

If the driver it deemed to not be incorrect in the cams hearing, reinstate him up the field from where he finished with the time lost for the drive through. I guess there is never a good scenario with this, to many variables.

I agree in principal but as stated previously here anything deserving of a drive through or stop go should be based on the time it takes to do so at the particular track (due to different length pitlanes) and then applied/ not applied after the race is over.
While NOT a bignose fan (It wouldn't have changed the timing of the dizzy failure )
I still believe that any cars involved in a panelbending exercise and unable to drive themselves back to the pits (minimum damage being - loss of complete corner of car - Skaife/Bargs No structural damage forget it) should be given some shakedown laps (6 maybe) to check the car before the next heat ala Adelaide.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

As for the magic awarding of points... how many? How many points did he loose? Would he have kept those places? Might another car have suddenly arrived in the drivers door late in the race?

You can't just award points for such a situation. Tennis players don't get line calls back. You have to take it on the chin and move on.

Totally agree... the answer is in the correction of the error before it happens as opposed to post-race twiddles and tweaks which could set some dangerous precedents.

JB would most likely have finished inside the top 10, based on the time lost, but with the number of safety cars and the like, its very hard to calculate/estimate where that position was as the full course yellow bunches the cars up every time.

I think Team BOC is taking it on the chin, but are obviously (rightly!) not happy that this has been allowed to happen in the first place....

[cavvy]

Didnt a similar mistake of fact (passing under a yellow) cost Garth Tander a win in Adelaide a few years back - he also had to take it on the chin.

[dirttrack]

Issue him with a drive through credit that he can use at a later date.

[frederick]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

The fault was not with AVESCO so admitting wrongness is not even relevant.

As for the magic awarding of points... how many? How many points did he loose? Would he have kept those places? Might another car have suddenly arrived in the drivers door late in the race?

You can't just award points for such a situation. Tennis players don't get line calls back. You have to take it on the chin and move on.

If he was in 13th when they called him in and he re-joined in 25th then the points awarded are the difference between 13th and 25th
what happens after is irrelevant unless he completely fails to finish and scores 0 points in which case the "points are moot"

In other words AVESCO carries no responsibility for consequential loss they simply re-dress the immediate wrong

The trouble with the re-instatement of time is that it affects all the drivers behind and deprives them of points that they may have earned on track

[Chappelli]

I think one simple rule of “where the actions of the competitor have directly affected the course of the race” then a drive through should be awarded, where the actions do not affect the course of the race then apply a time penalty/fine where applicable.

Obviously you'll still get a few line calls every now and then, but you won't get drivers being effectively taken out of a race for something that A) had nothing to do with them B) made no difference to the outcome of the race and C) would be better punished by a fine or a slap on the hand.

[lcfp2297]

Originally Posted by frederick

If he was in 13th when they called him in and he re-joined in 25th then the points awarded are the difference between 13th and 25th
what happens after is irrelevant unless he completely fails to finish and scores 0 points in which case the "points are moot"

so that's 12 places, or 36 points that he automatically receives...

What if he had of powered on and come better than 12th? He would have got more points for the leg than the winner

What happens after is VERY RELEVANT...as you yourself suggested with the dnf scenario...

[dsg]

Originally Posted by dirttrack

Issue him with a drive through credit that he can use at a later date.

I'm not sure issuing “get out of jail free” cards are promoting the right principles. But as has been said a solution is required that can eliminate these errors or redress them before any damage is done.

[frederick]

Originally Posted by lcfp2297

so that's 12 places, or 36 points that he automatically receives...

What if he had of powered on and come better than 12th? He would have got more points for the leg than the winner

What happens after is VERY RELEVANT...as you yourself suggested with the dnf scenario...

Good point, although that would probably only happen in an enduro. In a sprint race he wouldn't have the time to regain that much,
although if he did you would just have to call it compensation for the terrible injustice he'd suffered not to mention the slur on his reputation etc.

[peckstar]

i like the idea of a get out of jail free, ive tried to think of other ways to fix things but they all have weaknesses.

im also a fan of a points penalty for certain offences, especially for non driver related penalties like this

on the weekend todd kelly took his first drive through one lap before a safety car, result he dropped some places but was still only the lenth of the straight behind ambrose. then he got another penalty which dropped him back a bit, but another safety car meant he was only afew cars behind ambrose.

where is the penalty, he should have been a lap down instead he finsihed about 20secs behind