Calder this weekend

[cavvy]

The meeting at Calder this weekend is to be sponsored by Skye Sands (Rusty French) & is to include Nascars of which Rusty has one - anyone know whether Nascars will run? Auscars?

[inpitlane]

They've been advertised as appearing at every round of the series this year and as yet nothing has turned up, there were a few AUSCARs and Sportsmans at the last meeting.
Sadly I see that they're charging spectators $20 to get in this weekend which for a meeting with less than 75 cars is hardly good value for money.
If it was free though I'd recommend it as it's all very casual, you see a lot of bizarre stuff that wouldn't get a run elsewhere and the drivers love the number of laps for the money. If nothing else it's bloody cheap testing.
Of course with the forecast being pretty crook Calder's a damn good place to keep away from.
If it's fine it's easily the best track in Victoria to take photos from as you can get really close to the action, and in between races you can play count the potholes!

[Camaroz]

When will Calder and Winton realise....

"....it hasn't worked fella's!!!!!!!!!" You have had 2 years at it and it HASN'T WORKED!!!

The only reason AASA are getting any 'business' at the moment (apart from their own stubboness) is from event organisers 'trying to cut corners and costs' to line there own pockets. What happens when they get their first claim? Will Bob just plunge the 'company' into receivership and say 'see you in court in umpteen years'. This lot cannot be trusted.

Lets get Motor Sport back together (especially in Victoria).

There could also be "more trouble for Bob" if he is publicising "NASCAR" as a catergory at one of 'his' meetings!

Cavvy, I know ThunderRoad is trying but the gnome ain't got any friends left!

[Robert Ryan]

About time Bob retired completley and sell his tracks.. for everyone concerned.. he is an embarrassment.

[BFC]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

When will Calder and Winton realise....

"....it hasn't worked fella's!!!!!!!!!" You have had 2 years at it and it HASN'T WORKED!!!

The only reason AASA are getting any 'business' at the moment (apart from their own stubboness) is from event organisers 'trying to cut corners and costs' to line there own pockets. What happens when they get their first claim? Will Bob just plunge the 'company' into receivership and say 'see you in court in umpteen years'. This lot cannot be trusted.

Lets get Motor Sport back together (especially in Victoria).

There could also be "more trouble for Bob" if he is publicising "NASCAR" as a catergory at one of 'his' meetings!

Cavvy, I know ThunderRoad is trying but the gnome ain't got any friends left!

so how far up in the CAMS hierachy are u????? or are u just a s.h.i.t stirrer???? and whats this about AASA lining their pockets no more than CAMS does even less and so what if they publisise NASCARS most people like their motorsport no matter who runs it... so get a life w.a.n.k.e.r.

[mixxer]

and in between races you can play count the potholes!

You wouldnt have enough time over the whole weekend to count them all !!!
Its sad to see the track, service roads, crowd facilities at CP in such a run down condition compared to its hey days

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by BFC

so how far up in the CAMS hierachy are u????? or are u just a s.h.i.t stirrer???? and whats this about AASA lining their pockets no more than CAMS does even less and so what if they publisise NASCARS most people like their motorsport no matter who runs it... so get a life w.a.n.k.e.r.

I'm not with CAMS.

I said the event organisers are 'lining their pockets', not AASA! By the way, is AASA a non-profit organisation? Are its Officers 'elected'?

"NASCAR" is a Trademark. You would need permission to use someones "Trademark"!

Get some rest, then if you can, come back and tell everyone that AASA is a roaring success and everyones happy and I'll go away.

[cavvy]

Boys, boys ......

This was supposed to be about motor racing, not politics.

Rusty French has soooo many toys - all I wanted to know was whether he was dusting off the Nascar.

[1200Datto27]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

I'm not with CAMS.

I said the event organisers are 'lining their pockets', not AASA! By the way, is AASA a non-profit organisation? Are its Officers 'elected'?

"NASCAR" is a Trademark. You would need permission to use someones "Trademark"!

Get some rest, then if you can, come back and tell everyone that AASA is a roaring success and everyones happy and I'll go away.

That's right, only CAMS are allowed to "line their pockets", not the organisers who take on the risks of running events, and want to somehow cover costs without making everything to expensive for competitors and spectators...

Having dealt with both organisations organising club motorsport events, I know that I would much rather use AASA for the permits (and not just because they are cheaper) than have to deal with the bullying and threats that come from CAMS (why I have returned my Officials license)

So what if Bob and Mick are not elected to the roles that they have in the organisation, at least we know that they haven't had any silliness used in getting them into those roles, and again, why can't they make some money from the provision of services, it's not like CAMS doesn't.

And AASA is successful, even long time CAMS supporters are starting to use them.

[Matthew Ronke]

And if there where more AASA race meetings in Victoria in 2006 than CAMS would that mean it is considered a success? I know the people involved in AASA are more than happy, they have just extend there insurance another 12 months. There is a lot more to it than you think. I know that what monies earned at Winton are put back into the facility and Bob has put more money into motorsport than any 10 men. So accusing them of lining there own pockets is a bit rich.

Entries are growing in the VMRC all the time. The only reason it is not oversubscribed is the politics stopping some people from racing, a fate that the Touring Car Festival suffered at the start of the year, which you would be well aware of.

[emjaya]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

About time Bob retired completley and sell his tracks.. for everyone concerned.. he is an embarrassment.

What,he should sell his tracks to the land developers as a housing estates,thats who would buy them.Look at Amaroo park,where is it now,Oran Parks days are numbered and if they could put houses on Lakeside they would.No one is in a hurry to build any new permenent circuits,we should try to support the ones we have.

Originally Posted by inpitlane

and in between races you can play count the potholes!

Nice smooth roads in Albert Park,courtesy of the council and state government,pity you are not allowed to race on them.Same with Sufers Paradise and Adelaide and AVESCO want street races in Townsville and Brisbane,good luck in trying to race there on the weekend.

Bob Jane has done and is doing more for amateur racing in Victoria than CAMS and AVESCO (one and the same these days) are doing,if he makes a profit than good luck to him.

[dynamik gal]

When the V8s and the Formula Holdens were at CP in 1998 I had one of the best weekends there, it was fun and the racing was, well, delayed and shortened, but still fun. Its a shame that the track doesn't get more run time. I've even done laps at the track in my first Formula Ford, so it holds a special place! If only it were done up just a little bit, it would return to be well respected.

[dynamik gal]

And I also agree that the Jane's have done a phenomenal amount for Motorsport country wide. Don't forget who came up to support the Bathurst 1000 when it seemed like no one else wanted to sponsor it.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by 1200Datto27

That's right, only CAMS are allowed to "line their pockets", not the organisers who take on the risks of running events, and want to somehow cover costs without making everything to expensive for competitors and spectators...

CAMS is owned by the Members, so this lining of pockets is feeding back to the Members - Yes?

Having dealt with both organisations organising club motorsport events, I know that I would much rather use AASA for the permits (and not just because they are cheaper) than have to deal with the bullying and threats that come from CAMS (why I have returned my Officials license)

Why is AASA cheaper? What are the benefits to you (as an Organiser) and your competitors (Entrants) over and above a CAMS Permit?

How were you "bullied and threatned"? I have never come across this. Were there problems developing a satisfactory "Safety Plan", "OH&S Policy" etc to CAMS standards (i.e FIA) with your events? In my enquiry into AASA Permits there was only 'dated' (i.e. superseeded) CAMS terminology in their requirements, nothing new or revolutionary and when it came to (real) cover for both Competitor and Organiser - sadly lacking! The requirements of CAMS reflect the requirements of the SCUM that is the Insurance Industry. Yes there are seat polishers at CAMS but there are also good managers that (are/and) have kept Motor Sport affordable in Australia.

So what if Bob and Mick are not elected to the roles that they have in the organisation, at least we know that they haven't had any silliness used in getting them into those roles, and again, why can't they make some money from the provision of services, it's not like CAMS doesn't.

CAMS generates 'reserves' and is accountable to its Members. Private Company's generate profits and are accountable to the share holders. Who are the share holders? Are Bob and Mick the "Directors"?

And AASA is successful, even long time CAMS supporters are starting to use them.

Like..................................?
(Please don't name Silverstone Events, they have never supported CAMS).

What I am on about here is that;

AASA Cover is not the equal of CAMS Cover. So who in there right mind (unless disaffected by CAMS) would use it?

I beleive that the existance of AASA (particularly in Vic by taking two race tracks out of the loop) is a negative to Motor Sport.

AIR has been touted as a AASA circuit but there has been no Race Meetings there for years and years so where does SA benefit?

Is there an AASA affiliated circuit in NSW? Is there an AASA circuit in Qld (or is QR the same as Winton with 'dual citizenship'), how's Tassy looking? Where is the growth plan for AASA?

There has been no sign of a wholesale shift ( or even a dribble) of competitors or promotors to AASA so why continue (unless it is really a big earner for the Directors of AASA)?

AASA has not worked!!!!! It was ill-concieved and has just become a pimple on the arse of Moror Sport.

[Camaroz]

Some of my responses to Datto appeared as Datto's quotes, apologies.

RE: That's right, only CAMS are allowed to "line their pockets", not the organisers who take on the risks of running events, and want to somehow cover costs without making everything to expensive for competitors and spectators...

CAMS is owned by the Members, so this 'lining of pockets' is feeding back to the Members - Yes?

RE: Having dealt with both organisations organising club motorsport events, I know that I would much rather use AASA for the permits (and not just because they are cheaper) than have to deal with the bullying and threats that come from CAMS (why I have returned my Officials license)

Why is AASA cheaper? What are the benefits to you (as an Organiser) and your competitors (Entrants) over and above a CAMS Permit? How were you "bullied and threatned"? I have never come across this. Were there problems developing a satisfactory "Safety Plan", "OH&S Policy" etc to CAMS standards (i.e FIA) with your events? In my enquiry into AASA Permits there was only 'dated' (i.e. superseeded) CAMS terminology in their requirements, nothing new or revolutionary and when it came to (real) cover for both Competitor and Organiser - sadly lacking! The requirements of CAMS reflect the requirements of the SCUM that is the Insurance Industry. Yes there are seat polishers at CAMS but there are also good managers that (are/and) have kept Motor Sport affordable in Australia.

RE: So what if Bob and Mick are not elected to the roles that they have in the organisation, at least we know that they haven't had any silliness used in getting them into those roles, and again, why can't they make some money from the provision of services, it's not like CAMS doesn't.

CAMS generates 'reserves' and is accountable to its Members. Private Company's generate profits and are accountable to the share holders. Who are the share holders? Are Bob and Mick the "Directors"?

[storyline]

Cameroz sounds awfully familiar - doesn't have shares in a printing business does he?

But lets get down to facts and not sentiments shall we?

Why is AASA cheaper? What are the benefits to you (as an Organiser) and your competitors (Entrants) over and above a CAMS Permit? How were you "bullied and threatned"?

First point here - Why are they cheaper? Quite simple really - they don;t have the overheads and pockets of members of a boys club to line.

Benefits to anyone? Cheaper permits for starters - anyone can check that out quite easily. Aned cheaper insurance for the same and better cover than CAMS (btw - when was the last time you were actually able to view the CAMS insurance policy at a meeting - as you are legally supposed to be able to do?)

Bullied and threatened - I am well aware of one car club in particular in Victoria who have been told in no uncertain terms (verbally of course - the person making the 'request' wouldn't put it in writing - or maybe couldn't write?) that if they continued to use AASA for their events they would find it almost impossible to obtain permits for Sandown and Phillip Island sprint meetings. And to emphasis the point they (CAMS that is) graciously provided themthe permit for a Morwell Hill Climb - at something like 10 times the AASA permit fee!

If motor sport in Australia is supposedly affordable - why are category numbers declining? (If you don;t believe this compare - let's pick a couple of CLUB categories shall we?) - HQ's, Marque Sports Cars, Formula Vee's, Formula Fords, Clubman, Production Sports cars - ALL of these categories around the country have declined in numbers over the past 5-10 years. Sure, some categories have increased - but the decline far outweighs the drop (and yes - some categories have split Porsche 944's for example).

CAMS generates 'reserves' and is accountable to its Members

Surely you jest - CAMS acocuntable to its members? (First question - prvide the CAMS definition of members and then see what happens when one of those 'members' attempts to front up at at State or National councillors meeting and tries to ask ANY question.

Accountable - like the election of the NSW Board Member late last year who never resigned in writing but was still replaced (totally contrary to CAMS own Constitution).

Accountable - like the employment of so-called 'advisors' in NSW attepting to pressure the NSW Givernment into giving CAMS sole rights to run ALL forms of motor sport in NSW? (cars, bikes, karts etc). Have YOU (or anyone else for that matter) seen this expenditure in the CAMS Balance Sheet? No - and I bet you won't either.

Is there an AASA affiliated circuit in NSW?

Yes - Oran Park

Is there an AASA circuit in Qld (or is QR the same as Winton with 'dual citizenship'),

You answered your own question - QLD Raceway btw has been seriously considering dumping CAMS altogether because of the high cost of running even a single CAMS permitted event.

how's Tassy looking?

Quote good actually - even the ACCC is interested in Baskerville (as well as Sandown and Eastern Creeks recent refusals to allow hirings to clubs who have more than adequate insurance and permits from other than CAMS (which, you should already know, is NOT required in NSW as the only permits legally recognisable in NSW are from the Department of Sport and Recreation - something CAMS is not happy about.

[hml2777]

well said storyline, good to see some 'facts' stated istead of inuendo

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by storyline

Cameroz sounds awfully familiar - doesn't have shares in a printing business does he?

But lets get down to facts and not sentiments shall we?



First point here - Why are they cheaper? Quite simple really - they don;t have the overheads and pockets of members of a boys club to line.

Benefits to anyone? Cheaper permits for starters - anyone can check that out quite easily. Aned cheaper insurance for the same and better cover than CAMS (btw - when was the last time you were actually able to view the CAMS insurance policy at a meeting - as you are legally supposed to be able to do?)

Bullied and threatened - I am well aware of one car club in particular in Victoria who have been told in no uncertain terms (verbally of course - the person making the 'request' wouldn't put it in writing - or maybe couldn't write?) that if they continued to use AASA for their events they would find it almost impossible to obtain permits for Sandown and Phillip Island sprint meetings. And to emphasis the point they (CAMS that is) graciously provided themthe permit for a Morwell Hill Climb - at something like 10 times the AASA permit fee!

If motor sport in Australia is supposedly affordable - why are category numbers declining? (If you don;t believe this compare - let's pick a couple of CLUB categories shall we?) - HQ's, Marque Sports Cars, Formula Vee's, Formula Fords, Clubman, Production Sports cars - ALL of these categories around the country have declined in numbers over the past 5-10 years. Sure, some categories have increased - but the decline far outweighs the drop (and yes - some categories have split Porsche 944's for example).



Surely you jest - CAMS acocuntable to its members? (First question - prvide the CAMS definition of members and then see what happens when one of those 'members' attempts to front up at at State or National councillors meeting and tries to ask ANY question.

Accountable - like the election of the NSW Board Member late last year who never resigned in writing but was still replaced (totally contrary to CAMS own Constitution).

Accountable - like the employment of so-called 'advisors' in NSW attepting to pressure the NSW Givernment into giving CAMS sole rights to run ALL forms of motor sport in NSW? (cars, bikes, karts etc). Have YOU (or anyone else for that matter) seen this expenditure in the CAMS Balance Sheet? No - and I bet you won't either.


Yes - Oran Park

You answered your own question - QLD Raceway btw has been seriously considering dumping CAMS altogether because of the high cost of running even a single CAMS permitted event.

Quote good actually - even the ACCC is interested in Baskerville (as well as Sandown and Eastern Creeks recent refusals to allow hirings to clubs who have more than adequate insurance and permits from other than CAMS (which, you should already know, is NOT required in NSW as the only permits legally recognisable in NSW are from the Department of Sport and Recreation - something CAMS is not happy about.

OK, facts then.

I've never seen an AASA insurance policy either. Several people I know have asked, and thus far I've yet to hear of anyone who has.

AASA claims its insurance is better. Thus far it is untested. Many competitors distrust it because of the possibility it may fold and disappear into bankruptcy proceeding or offshore deniability. The key point here is that it is untested. And nobody wants to be the guinea pig.

Club categories are declining? No this is certainly not the case. Category number here are booming. Formula Vees, Geminis and HQ Holdens are well up on two years ago. Formula Ford and Sports Sedans are struggling, and Saloon Cars are holding steady, but everyone else is up, in some cases, almost double and continuing to trend upwards. Are you wrongly attributing a local problem to a national issue?

I've only missed one QR AASA meeting. They are fine for what they are. Entry level racing. But cars are lumped together in a random mess. If you turn up with a Cobra replica, you could find yourself racing against a Group Sb MGA or a Lola T70 MkIII historic Le Mans car.

You could find Formula Fords racing with Formula Vees, Cooper-Climax F1s, Formula Pacific, AF2s.

Geminis racing against TRANZAMs.

Safe grouping of vehicles is not occurring.

If you've got a car and want to go racing and don't care about relative speeds and just want to have fun, and racing and testing your skill against similar cars in a structured format is not important to you, then AASA is for you.

AASA is unambitious racing. They don't run national championships. They don't run rallying, off-road or motorcycles.

This how they run cheaper, by taking only the easy pickings rather than the sport as a whole.

[mixxer]

.

[storyline]

Have you asked at QR to see the insurance policy? I suspect you haven't. I have asked for, and seen it at Winton - no qualms about letting me take my time to read it either. OTOH I have asked numerous times at Sandown, Phillip Island, Eastern Creek and Barbagallo and not once have I been able to even sight the biner it is contained in (presuming, of course, that it IS a binder).

As to the level of AASA race - maybe you should take a look at the size at this weekends Calder meeting.

But - to give clarification to my numbers claim - I picked HQ Holdens as a representative category - I don;t think there would be any argument that this is a State Level category.

I compared 2000 and 2005 entries at Oran Park, Wakefield Park, Eastern Creek, Phillip Island, and Sandown. This is what I got

Track 2000 2005
OP 34 16
ECk 38 14
WP 15 17
San 44 28
PhIsl 33 22

Wakefield Park is the ONLY track to not show a decrease - whereas all other tracks have. The events I chose, btw, were State Championship Rounds so I don;t think you can say there was any bias in the figures (if there were I could have left Wakefield out).

The truth is that at present you have a Top National Level meeting (V8's); a State Championship Level meeting (the various state meetings) and then nothing - the State meetings are becoming too competitive and cut throat for those trying to get into the sport (have a look at the names of those running - you will find that roughly 75% of all State Level competitors were also running 5 years ago - there has NOT been in the influx of new talent/drivers over this period as say in the 1970's or 1980's.

This is one area that AASA [b]are[/a] addressing - attempting to provide an entry level competitive arena - something CAMS, for all its words, is failing to do - it is NOT helping the newcomer to the sport.

[Crash Test]

Storyline, there's an awful lot of statistics out there, but of course we only ever produce the ones that suit ourselves!

Just having a look at a class, say the QLD Geminis. In 2002, the class had 6 cars running around, last time out there were 24 (with probably another 5-6 ready to take to the track by the end of the year/start of next year).

So how many of those 24 punters were racing in 2000? 2.

So how many new people have come into the class? 22.

Damn those statistics!

The CAMS meeting at Morgan Park at the end of August attracted 197 cars. The AASA meeting at QR 2 weeks later attracted 85 starters. Everyone had fun and there were 3 good days racing between them.

QR want to ditch CAMS? Good on em! I shudder to think what sort of coin they'd be making out of running a state championship. All I know, is that if you get a decent roll up, despite charging a track hire fee, an organising club can still very easily make a profit.

Round 3 was held at QR a few months ago, and they charged $290 entry fee (some $110 more than round 4 which was held an hour down the road). They got a good field, and filled up all of their sheds (I don't care if QR don't own them, someone does, and they make some mighty good coin from them for the weekend!). I suppose QR didn't charge themselves a track hire fee, and that they pay their staff regarless of what's on track.

So unless they are doing something very wrong, I can't see how a state championship meeting for them is a nice little earner.

Obviously CAMS must be fairly bloody hard to deal with, and must be pretty bloody unreasonably priced.

On the other hand, AASA must be pretty bloody cheap if the money is there to run race meetings for 85 cars, and not get any shed income.

Then again, you can run a V8 experience day and do pretty well out of it.

Then again, the Powercruise will be mega, and will **** on anything at QR apart from the V8s, and rightly so I guess.

FWIW at the end of the day, I think that CAMS meetings and AASA meetings both have a role to play on the local scene. The CAMS meetings have been managed well and are on the up, and the AASA caters for the more casual punter. Heck, it's so hard to get on ANY track these days for testing, many find AASA meets a cheap day out testing.

Bring it on!

Bring on Kilcoy

[Falcadore]

storyline: I haven't asked. Numerous others I know have.

Numbers may have been down fives years ago - but what of one or two years ago?

Let me add Queensland Raceway to your graph:
2000 - 17
2005 - 26

So thats TWO circuits that have bucked your trend. Should I investigate further?

You present the system far to simply. There are numerous levels apart from AVESCO and State Champs. Morgan Park for example is holding the week before Bathurst a meeting at a lower level than state championship meeting - which is not an AASA event.

Again I suggest you are using a local model as a national rule with incomplete data.

AASA has not brought masses of new competitors into the Queensland scene. AASA events here are split roughly 1/3 between new competitors, existing 'CAMS' competitors have a cheap test session, and former competitors making a comeback with their older machinery that are no longer competitive elsewhere.

However the growth in the Qld scene at state championship level has seen an influx of new drivers. Improved Productino has exploded here with new competitors and Formula Vee is near un recognisable to five years ago.

[cavvy]

[QUOTE=Camaroz]

Cavvy, I know ThunderRoad is trying but

QUOTE]

no, no .. Thunder exited stage right - Elvis has left the building ...

[silver 2]

Storeyline, nice story and a piece of fiction it is. Marque sportscars ( and you imply Victoria by your reference to 944's) are at record numbers. In the time you state the numbers have more than doubled in Victoria. Similar situation in NSW that achieved a high but has dropped back slightly at the moment. The impact of AASA is zero on this class.
The problem of pumping up the AASA events in Victoria is that the expectation falls a long,long way from what it needs to be. Glorified practice day is what it is at the moment.The presumption that competitors who do come are happy with it is a rose coloured glasses joke.What is disgracefull is the hijacking of the VMRC name.A great series has its name pinched. How is that in the best interests of competitors.The aim was to cause confusion-- worth noting how few keep coming to the so called VMRC.It does those involved no credit.
Next--- the idea of CAMS being a democracy ( Camaroz) What are you on? This organization is out of control( certainly by the rank and file club members) .Stated view of CAMS is that the management is there to maximize the income to the organization.The rights and desires of ordinary members and especially competitors and there ability to put them on the table falls a very distant second to any commercial organization that comes along with a bucketfull of money to swell the CAMS coffers. ( Are any of the paid executive of CAMS on performance based contracts?)
The reality is that AASA situation is different in the other states from Victoria because of the crossover of issues in Victoria, Those involved would do well to remove those points of conflict,match the benefits of CAMS insurance clause for clause ( do it as distinct from rationalising the difference) ,widen the competitor involement ( Promoters want to return to 60's where they promoted,ran and benefitted. The world is a little more sophisticated and complicated and trying to turn back the clock is not destined to succeed.
Running 60 car meetings cannot be usefull exercise compared to 250-300 . That is the reality of the so called VMRC compared to the Victorian State Circuit Racing Series.Potentially , by going about things differently an organization like AASA could succeed. At the current rate if (IF) it was able to sustain the current rate of growth in about 2030 it might work.CAMS have dissaffected a very large number of people and untill the AASA lot start to be honest with themselves and develop a better business model,they will continue to find themselves on the wrong side of the fence with a
lot of unrealized potential.
One last word-- the CAMS apologists who appear on this forum ought to start recognizing the degree of dissatisfaction with that organization and instead of smugly rationalizing the behaviour get critical and force reform-- before it is too late (it is already too long coming).

[storyline]

Originally Posted by cavvy

The meeting at Calder this weekend is to be sponsored by Skye Sands (Rusty French) & is to include Nascars of which Rusty has one - anyone know whether Nascars will run? Auscars?

The only one that turned up today (Saturday) is Eddie Woods and his AUSCAR. Running ti with other Sports Sedans.