Patrick Head and reverse grids

Super Tourer · 13 Mar 2006, 17:30 (Ref:1547287)

Patrick Head has criticised the current Formula One qualifying regulations during a seminar given to the colleges staff and students. "Everyone complains about a lack of overtaking in F1 but I can't see how there can be a lot of overtaking when you put cars on the grid in order of their speed. It means that by definition that the car in front of you is a bit quicker than you and the one behind is a little bit slower - so how can you have overtaking?

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/content/news.htm

Jordi · 13 Mar 2006, 19:03 (Ref:1547368)

It's just logical. Why there was passing in Japan 2005? Because the quicker cars were behind...

Dutton · 13 Mar 2006, 19:29 (Ref:1547405)

But those quicker cars were working through much slower cars for the most part.

If you ran Japan 2005 via Patrick's suggestion, then it would not work out the same.

Races via Head's idea would certainly be kinda interesting, but it is not like the cars on the last row would be able to breeze past those in front of them (seeing as they would not be slow enough for that, in the most part).

I have this thing whereby I like to see the cars qualify according to their potential. It may not maximise overtaking potential, but it does reward excellence.

Suze · 13 Mar 2006, 19:41 (Ref:1547417)

Can see his point, but.....doesn't work like that.

Kimi working his way from back to third this weekend is another example.

You can apply that logic to other formulas though - why was there (looking back when grids were better) always good overtaking in FF?

Maybe it (y'know, "them") needs to look at the massive difference between the different teams and cars, but then I guess you start looking at restrictions all over again. Brings in the argument of punishing teams for being better and having better staff (or resources, which can be money, which is a different matter again).

Dutton · 13 Mar 2006, 19:51 (Ref:1547434)

Except, logically, regards the line of thought in question, they would need to be looking at ways to increase in the differential between teams.

In F1, under current regulations, if everyone on the grid had similar performance, then there would not be much passing at all.

So, really, we need to have each team be 2-seconds/lap faster than the team ahead/behind them (thinking in terms of a traditional grid), then reverse that order.

Then we could watch the slower cars drop back as the faster ones move forward.

WOW. I would LOVE to see that.

Brilliant.

chillibowl · 13 Mar 2006, 20:21 (Ref:1547471)

"I think the races should run in reverse championship order, so the lowest points scorer would be on pole and the points leader on the back of the grid, so then you would have to have over taking" Head's comments from the above link

so is he saying there should be no qualifying at all and just having the teams line up according to the WDC standing but in reverse order?

i must be missing something here cause this sounds a little cracked!

QuickSilver · 13 Mar 2006, 20:26 (Ref:1547475)

Maybe he wants reverse qualifying. Slow cars at the front, quick at the rear. I can just see it now, Ferrari and Renault duking it out for pole by seeing who can cover the lap in 2 hours or more.

Qualifying would take about a week.

Anyone who breaks or causes a red flag goes straight to pole.

-

Flat12-Aircool · 13 Mar 2006, 22:03 (Ref:1547547)

Ok Patrick how about this one?

Why not just get rid of Blue flags and make the front runners overtake Back-markers the hard way, rather than forcing them to move over!

Suze · 13 Mar 2006, 22:21 (Ref:1547567)

Now that, actually, is a good point.

Gotta make sure the back markers are sensible (and not ever so slightly star struck first GP start chappies who decide to take MS out in the championship decider to get a few minutes of fame...) BUT overtaking the hard way could be more fun - especially as it can be crucial time wise when the guy in front is being chased, can make a lot of difference.

youngoldy · 14 Mar 2006, 10:15 (Ref:1547821)

The FIA won't just come round to that way of thinking. The FIA have introduced the new rules to try and make a much more level playing feild, so that teams can not be comprimised in anyway, like having drivers sent ot the back of the grid, ballast, etc. This is F1, not BTCC. How have they made BTCC more entertaining, not by making the racing more of a level playing feild, but by adding ballast, reverse grids.

I agree with Patrick Head, but thats just not the way to do it.

Its F1, not 'Wacky Races'.

Pingguest · 14 Mar 2006, 10:33 (Ref:1547829)

The parc fermé-regulations made the lack of overtaking even worse. Because of the parc fermé-regulations the starting grid is (almost) ordered to the race pace. That has to be changed. Even in 2002 we saw some great battles between Montoya and Schumacher, because the Williams-team just had a good pace in qualifying.

Jordi · 14 Mar 2006, 16:07 (Ref:1548100)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Ok Patrick how about this one?

Why not just get rid of Blue flags and make the front runners overtake Back-markers the hard way, rather than forcing them to move over!

You know, before, drivers tended to have to pass backmarkers... nowadays at the very moment a slower car is in the eyesight of the leader he gets either 10 blue flags or a menacing hand...

Dutton · 14 Mar 2006, 16:56 (Ref:1548129)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Why not just get rid of Blue flags and make the front runners overtake Back-markers the hard way, rather than forcing them to move over!

I have been wanting this for ages, but I would make one adjustment to your suggestion.

Do not get rid of the blue flags, for they do serve a purpose, but just make them for information purposes.

dcp2685 · 14 Mar 2006, 17:09 (Ref:1548139)

Yea really quicksilver.

I honestly don't see how this is remotely rational. With this i see two bad scenarios.

Option 1: Normal qualifying where the pole sitter sits at position 22. Last person gets pole position. Leads to the scenario quicksilver pointed out.

Option 2: Remove qualifying completely and reverse the finishing order to get starting order. Under this method, we'd have Albers, Fisichella, Villenuve and Ide in the first two rows and in position 22, Alonso Schumacher, Raikkonen and Button. Your reward for winning is having to start at the back of the grid next race. Not to mention the fans would get even less for their money now they'd miss qualifying and add yet another hit agains the sport.

Option 2 would pretty much rule out back to back wins.

Option 3:

Dutton · 14 Mar 2006, 18:27 (Ref:1548227)

Well, Patick's suggestion is running the grid in reverse championship order.

Hungary 89 · 15 Mar 2006, 13:28 (Ref:1549454)

I also agree with Patrick's comments

Years ago If you had a bad qualifying session you could go away completely change the cars setup to solve the problem, (Hungary 89 being a classic example) Coupled with that the requirements of the race (In the no re-fueling days) were completely different to qualifying so a car that was quick in qually wasn't necessarily as fast in the race

Now there is very little you can do to the car at the end of qualifying and the requirements on the car are very similar in qually and the race so Patrick is spot on The fasted car in qualifying is going to be the fastest in the race more often than not

Suze · 15 Mar 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1549479)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

Do not get rid of the blue flags, for they do serve a purpose, but just make them for information purposes.

Good point, prefer that idea....

QuickSilver · 15 Mar 2006, 14:18 (Ref:1549515)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

Do not get rid of the blue flags, for they do serve a purpose, but just make them for information purposes.

in other words, blue flags = ignore with extreme prejudice. the track would awash with moving roadblocks.
-

JohnMiller · 15 Mar 2006, 14:25 (Ref:1549517)

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngoldy

With such a big car, why do they all sit in the front?

ss_collins · 15 Mar 2006, 15:00 (Ref:1549542)

Maybe you could run the fisrt half of the season normally and then the second half with reverse grids. Maybe.

Hey I didn't say it was a good idea!!

Suze · 15 Mar 2006, 15:13 (Ref:1549547)

Nah that wouldn't work either, that would be too confusing and silly! It's got to be one or the other.

John - it's wacky races - doesn't matter!

Kirk · 15 Mar 2006, 15:52 (Ref:1549583)

We have debated this several times. IMO, the solution is so simple (too simple so F1 will likely not ever go there). Revamp the points system to include points for qualifying order, then reverse the top ten on the starting grid. Or draw for starting positions among the top 10. Either way would be better than what we have.

Suze · 15 Mar 2006, 15:55 (Ref:1549589)

I'm still on the points for qualifying business. But that's my opinion. Don't agree with reversing top ten or whatever, nor pulling out starting positions - they've got to the front cos they've done a better job than everyone else - they're quickest.

Kirk · 15 Mar 2006, 16:00 (Ref:1549595)

So if they are quickest, they can collect the extra qualifying points and proceed to overtake the cars in front of them!!

Rather than run off leading the parade.

Dutton · 15 Mar 2006, 16:57 (Ref:1549626)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

in other words, blue flags = ignore with extreme prejudice. the track would awash with moving roadblocks.

For the most part, I don't think backmarkers have any particular desire to hold up the leaders. It doesn't help the help backmarker to do that.

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