Removing lapped cars under SC (re-named)

[maltafan]

Towards the end of the Montreal race, Kimi Raikonnen got stuck behing 2 lapped drivers under yellow flag circumstances, thus giving Alonso an 4 second lead.

Do you think that drivers should be allowed to overtake lapped drivers under yellow flag conditions? Does it make sense for the 2nd driver to be stuck behind 2 backmarkers because of the yellow flag.

Read more here

[Knowlesy]

It is frustrating, but only fair I feel.

Alonso has lapped the cars, Kimi hasn't. So why should Fernando lose out by having Kimi moved directly behind him. It's bad enough he has lost a thirty second lead!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by maltafan

Do you think that drivers should be allowed to overtake lapped drivers under yellow flag conditions? Does it make sense for the 2nd driver to be stuck behind 2 backmarkers because of the yellow flag.

Do you understand what the yellow flag means? It means that there is a hazard on the track & drivers must be prepared to stop if necessary. The safety of marshals, etc., working trackside & of the drivers themselves is much more important than a few seconds lost or gained...

[Rich D]

Under local yellow, definately NO. The rule is there for the safety of workers. Under safety car conditions, again no, unless in controlled shuffling of the pack -- so go full course, clear up the incident, then spend a lap getting the backmarkers out of the way, then go green. That could work, but that's the only way it could work.

Even then -- do you want to? The sfety car freezes the race where it was -- why give the trailing driver free passes past backmarkers? It could have been the case that the leader lost time spending 2 laps going past -- why give the second place car an advantage?

Luck of the draw -- leave it the way it is.

[Ian Sowman]

I think the original poster is referring specifically to situations where the safety car has been deployed and not in normal yellow flag conditions, although this isn't very clear.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Do you understand what the yellow flag means? It means that there is a hazard on the blah blah blah blah...

Did you follow the link to read the article, or did you just assume you knew best?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Do you understand what the yellow flag means?

I think (or rather I hope) that there is a translation problem here! I think the situation isn't referring to yellow flags. Which, obviously, there should not be any overtaking under at all, ever. I think this is referring to a SC situation after the incident that causes the full course yellow (in US speak) has been dealt with. It is changing the order of the pack before the end of the safety car.

I am against it. If you have two back markers between you then you should have overtaken them before the yellow like the leader had. You have already gained from the SC by getting all that time back.

However I do think it was daft how the first lapped car behind Alonso didn't get a move on at the restart and thus held Raikkonen up. They need to be told to get on with it.

[Adam43]

Thread title changed to reflect the topic more accurately

Here is another link for those Autosport subscribers: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/52814

[kipper]

It may be frustrating for a driver behind to have to overtake lapped cars before getting to fight with the leader after a safety car period, however, I feel that no rule changes should be implemented regarding this. If it were to be introduced for the first and second placed runners, then why not the third and fourth placed? This would probably result in a need to get all entrant on the lead lap together, then those a lap behind following them, then drivers two laps down thereafter and so on. With all the overtaking that would need to take place, I think it would probably negate the purpose of a safety car. Also it could be argued that by leaving lapped cars in order, then it offers some compensation to those who may have seen big leads disapeer.

[Hazard]

...mimic American racing rules...

Haven't seen that done in IRL/CART myself? Is it a NASCAR thing?

[Racer Scott]

Totally unfair to give them a lap back just for the sake of giving the second place man a run on the leader.

Because that's what this is about, isn't it - introducing an artificial closeness to the race...

[goodhorsehymn]

I understand your point there...but F1 is supposed to be thinking of the fans, and working out how to 'make the show better'. It would certainly help to do that. But yes, its perhaps not fair on some drivers.

[Adam43]

Show? Or Sport?
Is the principle aim to entertain the fans (falsely?) or to find the fastest?

If it entertains along the way then great, but let us do it naturally. If we force it then it isn't real sport or even the best entertainment. If we do it falsely then we can never have the ultimate highs and we are settling for a mediocre middle ground.

To improve the sport (and show) we should concentrate on the cars and the racing. We should not help those who are behind, we should not penalise those who have done well to lead. Those who demonstrate the skill we crave to see.

It is not meant to be easy to beat the best.

[BootsOntheSide]

Presumably maltafan also thinks that, when a soccer team has a player sent off, the score should be reset to 0-0, so as to make it 'fairer' for the 10 players they have left? Alonso had lapped 2 extra cars and deserved an advantage from that. NASCAR is welcome to rules designed to contrieve a show, but F1 should never lower itself to that.

[Knowlesy]

And that is spot on, Adam.

[Snrub]

It's a lot more interesting when the competitors get bunched up together for a restart. F1 has a chronic problem with providing excitement, moving lapped cars out of the way would improve it.

[Knowlesy]

Oh yes, immeasurably.

Perhaps they could bring out the pace car at five lap intervals as well, to provide a-thrill-a-second.

[Racer Scott]

It's funny how these things are so-often knee-jerk.

A slow Jarno Trulli at a restart in Canada and suddenly people want the rules overhauled.

[Knowlesy]

Yes. I mean, it seems the race was much more open until the safety car came out and gave Jarno Trulli the chance to wreck everything.

In fact, seriously, we got a position change out of the safety car. Michael got past Kimi after all.

[Racer Scott]

Absolutely - a safety car ultimately changed the order of the top three (and fooled some people into thinking Ferrari were on the pace )

[enemy-ace]

In regards to Champ Car I like the idea. But SC periods or full-course yellows are more prevelant in American racing and thus this type of situation is accounted for in the race strategy.
In regards to F1 I am against the idea. A SC period is pretty rare so for some driver it would be like winning the lottery.
I have to say however at the time of the race I did wish they would move the backmarkers out of the way. However after my head cleared , I am glad they didn't. Alonso fully deserved the win and it would have cheapened the race IMO, and I am a Maclaren supporter.

[BootsOntheSide]

I can't believe some people are in favour of this idea. there are much better non-artificial ways to increase the excitement in races, changing the aerodynamics or using less Tilkerings for example. Alonso had 2 cars in between him because he'd lapped them and Kimi hadn't. Imagine a situation where a team-mate of the 2nd place driver intentionally crashes to trigger a safety car, so as to increase his team-mate's chance of snatching victory.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Matski

Did you follow the link to read the article,

Yes I did; whatever the article says or doesn't say, I stand by my opinion that overtaking under yellow flags or behind the safety car, for whatever reason, should not be allowed.

or did you just assume you knew best?

Do you really think comments like that, & changing my quote to 'blah blah blah....' are really the stuff of mature, considered debate? By all means disagree with my comments, but don't sink to the level of, however mild, attacks on me as the poster. (And yes, to save anyone commenting, my original post was possibly too personal!)

[Marbot]

"It is not meant to be easy to beat the best".

Yes,spot on Adam (even if it is a little bit hard to take).

[ASCII Man]

How about introducing a 'double row' system like in NASCAR (Oh my God!), where cars on the lead lap stay right and the lapped cars stay left of the track?