Crossing the race track in extreme circumstances

[racer69]

I was out to Eastern Creek today with my brother to watch abit of practice for the Shannons Nationals.

Standing alone as the only spectators at turn 6/7 (just before corporate hill) we witnessed one of the Superkarts have a lose and, unable to restart the kart, he pushed it onto the grass and walked to the fence to wait for the end of the session for the circuit truck to come around and offer assistance.

The conversation turned to the absence of marshall's to wave a yellow flag (not a dig at Eastern Creek, it was a private practice day afterall, and this probably goes for all circuits on days like this), and one fire vehicle parked on the hill inside this area of the circuit (we assumed to see more of the track in the event of something happening which required assistence), and the fact that in the event of a major accident where the driver may need assistance (say a car overturned, was on fire etc) on a day like this and we were the only one's around, are we actually allowed to jump the fence to try and offer assistance, or must we stay and watch/go for help (remembering for instance in the case of a fire, there isn't much a spectator can do unless they happen to be wearing a flameproof suit or be carrying an extinguisher in the car).

Not really much of a question, just a conversation that came up and thought here might be a good place to discuss.

And many thanks to the driver of the orange AU Falcon saloon car, i don't know if it was especially for us, but he had the tail hanging out nearly every lap at that corner, was good to view

[Bullett]

If you havn't signed on as an official then you can't go trackside as far as I know as that is like insurance/indemnity...but im sure a more experienced person can correct me

[275 GTB-4]

No...you stand every chance of becoming another casualty after fire/rescue vehicles are scrambled.

Not to mention arrest for trespass.

Instead...go ask how you can become a volunteer

[fomoco]

Racer, no, you can't go out onto the the track, but like any person, if it was a serious incident, you would probably jump the the fence to help out.

Private days and test days are controlled by the people booking the circuit and the owner/promoter.

Generally, I would leave any incident on track to the organisers, unless as stated above, it was a life/death situation.

You would be amazed at what the human body can do and endure when something happens right in front of you.

Another solutions is, jump the fence and become a marshall.

[Armco Bender]

Why am I humming Skippy the Bush Kangaroo while reading this ?.........

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Why am I humming Skippy the Bush Kangaroo while reading this ?.........

The 8th state of Australia deems it so

[Mark Webber]

The Orange Au belongs to my mate Shane Smollen his a top bloke and I'll pass it on (its a saloon car.... not bad for a six )

[I16]

Originally Posted by racer69

I was out to Eastern Creek today with my brother to watch abit of practice for the Shannons Nationals.

The conversation turned to the absence of marshall's to wave a yellow flag (not a dig at Eastern Creek, it was a private practice day afterall, and this probably goes for all circuits on days like this)

Sorry this is unacceptable ............ a sponsored event such as The Shannons Nationals should be able to meet the costs for say 10 flaggies @ $150 each to ensure the safety of competitors at the unoffical/official practice day for such an event.
NSW has very strict controls on all sports - to allow an event [practice for a motor race] to proceed without effective controls for competitors is contemptible.
Eastern Creek charge the most outrageous fees to practice but provide sfa as far as safety on these days - they then rely on the faithful to turn up on race day and do it all for nothing - while pocketing a tidy sum from practice days.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by fomoco

The 8th state of Australia deems it so

Ummmm, well, actuallym we have four main islands - the North Island, the South Island, Stewart Island, and the West Island....the one just over the ditch there

Oh, and brilliant login....luckily you arent a Holden fan though.....

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by I16

Sorry this is unacceptable ............ a sponsored event such as The Shannons Nationals should be able to meet the costs for say 10 flaggies @ $150 each to ensure the safety of competitors at the unoffical/official practice day for such an event.
NSW has very strict controls on all sports - to allow an event [practice for a motor race] to proceed without effective controls for competitors is contemptible.

Surely there are rules and regs for this type of unofficial/private practice days to run which are standard.

The Shannons officials and track officials would know and understand what is required in regards to CAMS and OH&S standards, so I am guessing such occurrences a pretty common practice across Australia.

[Stephen Green]

Not only Australia. Most countries and circuits run with the bare minimum of circuit staff on test and track days. Accidents are normally attended by rapid response vehicles with trained medical and extraction staff on board.

Race days are different as they run under a permit issued by the national motorsport body. As far as I know nearly all countries reply on volunteer marshals to officiate. There has been much discussion in the Marshals Forum in the past over the merits or non merits of paying marshals. The concensus of opinion is they would rather remain volunteers, rather than attract the guy who wants to do the job purely for the money.

[User Name]

This happens at more tracks on test days, it is not ideal, but all tracks have other trained staff that can jump in if something big goes down. Radios are monitored in offices.

[Peddler]

I would near bet my left nut that the day (if it was run as a practice day leading up to an event) would of been run by ARDC themselves and therefore run under what is known as a CAMS event permit. It’s like blanket insurance cover that ARDC use in conjunction with CAMS for events.

If this was to be the case ARDC are also responsible to make sure that there is sufficient officials on hand to make sure that all safety matters are adhered to.

I also know that the ramifications as such for event organisers using this policy shoudl they not make sure that all aspects of driver saftey are adhered to are huge!!!

Problem is, ARDC (the ******s who run eastern creek) are a law to themselves and dont give two stuffs about much to be honest. They charge like wounded bulls and make it near impossible for anyone else who wants to run an event at the creek outside having them running the event and charging a shiettttt load more.

Dont start me on ARDC... i seriously wont shuttup about the idiots! Can not stand them.

[Senna05]

I've just come off a large reserve (army) activity -

If someone else is needed to do something, we make sure there is a "plan". IE, If the medic is the only perons lisenced for a truck, we make sure we have another person who is qualled in civi world to jump in.

When we sent the designated medic off to drive, we made sure another batallion with medic quals was available to come in if needed.

IE, if a track has a marshall or medic available when there areno paid medics or marshals, I am sure there are other arrangements made.

Hopefully I am not wrong.....

On that note, off to shower now.....

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Peddler

I would near bet my left nut that the day (if it was run as a practice day leading up to an event) would of been run by ARDC themselves and therefore run under what is known as a CAMS event permit.

Being a private practice I dont think it would run under an "event permit". Wouldnt it be just like any other circuit hire or test day by competitors

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Surely there are rules and regs for this type of unofficial/private practice days to run which are standard.

The Shannons officials and track officials would know and understand what is required in regards to CAMS and OH&S standards, so I am guessing such occurrences a pretty common practice across Australia.

You really do need to get out of the office more....who is doing all this education for officials and wandering around monitoring the ways events are run

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

You really do need to get out of the office more....who is doing all this education for officials and wandering around monitoring the ways events are run

DRT is a Cams true believer-- as his naive posts here prove once and for all-- no comprhension of the workings of practice days and race meetings.( I have to add-- motor racing in general)
I have a couple of points-- the Friday's that are run like this( I am trying not to digress too far) are often interesting-- I have seen ( while I was running at race speeds) a F/Ford from the previous session being loaded on trailer( like it was the side of a freeway!) on the run off area of the fastest corner of that track-- a truck- yes a truck appear from my right like it was a T intersection.I headed for pitlane and waited-- presuming that there was a mistake-- only to have an "official" inform my guys that we should get out there as the session was due to finish!!!!
The posters question-- should you help-- I think yes-- but with a proper decision about the urgency.
I recently was interstate and finishing my business earlier than expected with time to kill before flight-- realised how close a race track I had never seen was-- decided to go and have a look. I need to preface what I say by pointing out--- the majority of my experience has been in the state of Cams headquarters-- where standards are generally more tightly applied-- so I tend to have that sort of formalised view of how things should be done. So I arrive at track to find a club day going on.It is in fact of the type I had never seen before-- 4 cars actually racing at a time. Anyway-- I am standing on top of pit garages when car spins,clobbers fence one side of track, nearly clears fence on the outside and comes to rest near enough on the start /finish line.upside down-No roll cage,roof nearly flat, fuel pouring out,engine and wheels still going, . Officials all stand there- looking at each other-- nothing happening . I look for fire assistance etc-- none in sight- still nothing happening. Driver still in car-- this was starting to feel like a long time.I started running-- I had to go opposite direction first to get down stairs.Run to fence-- get told not to cross- brief argument- others join in and we assist driver out. Was it the right thing? On long reflection afterwards--in those circumstances--if it was me in the car-I would hope someone would have the nouse to assess the situation-- regardless.
I should point out-- I have assisted many club days, run major practice days, am involved in race organisation and management and am often close to raceday management--as well as a lot of hours in the race seat( and still are) myself. So I am probably reasonably well placed to make a call like that.

[D.R.T.]

Speaking about crossing racetracks, this footage is from the 91 Wellington 500
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cwe7tFM3gc

Check out the tv reporter

[PVDA]

And people still question the value of window nets.....

As for the original topic I've been to many events where I've sat on my hands and not got involved in on track problems when I'm not working the event. The legal ramifications of sticking your beak in when not required leaves you wide open for a very large law suit even with the good samaritan provisions in the law.

[Retired Racer]

I can Remember that incident as clearly as if it was yesterday. i was crewing that day and tonys car came to rest directly opposite our garage.The Question really is should Dick J have crossed the pit wall? That is a very tough one, the track speed there was not full throttle and tony was not in a good position for a crash crew to get there fast. however that part of the track was blind so he (dj) made a risky decision. But i know he didnt hesitate and the flaggies at the entrance to pitroad was waving yellows and signalling to oncoming cars to slow down. in that situation everyone got lucky but a member of the public doing that? it may well have had a tragic result. This thread is about the public jumping fences, I have said and will continue to say NO racedrivers know what they do is dangerous and they also know that help will come eventually and more often than not the safest place to be is to stay in the car until it is safe to get out

[Silver 3]

I agree with most of the comments-- it is not so much at the actual race meeting-- where the presumption of appropriate help not being far away is reasonable and probably right ( although I did see incident where car burnt because someone had removed fire extinguishers from post-- when driver drove to post and jumped out expecting help!!) The issue is more at non- meetings eg the Friday practice at numerous meetings is not part of the race meeting as such-- so different standards are in place.Another point-- the flaggies on these days are usually not there to rescue or retrieve-- they may be able to call for help and that is about it.

[fomoco]

I have said and will continue to say NO,racedrivers know what they do is dangerous and they also know that help will come eventually and more often than not the safest place to be is to stay in the car until it is safe to get out[/quote]

Hate to say this, but in my experience, drivers tend to get out and walk around and have a look at thier cars.

And about 98% will not listen to directions from marshalls, unless it is a major collision.

As the thread said, a practice day, none around, a car against the wall burning, rolled a few times, whatever,
The natural human reaction is to preserve life.

[Nivola]

go to you tube and look up tom pryce!

Rest in Peace boys.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Nivola

go to you tube and look up tom pryce!

+1

although don't watch if you've just have breakfast, lunch or dinner as it's very messy.

As for drivers helping other drivers, I wonder if Lowndes' knee injury (Calder 1999) would been less if the drivers hadn't tried to drag him out with his foot being stuck especially when you consider the marshals were in chase vehicles and the rest of us were parked less than 100m away from his "parking" spot??

[Silver 3]

I don't think the original question related to the appropriate help being close at hand-- more if it was not. Leaving rescue to the appropriate people is how it should be -- but extend this a little-- what if (not at race meeting itself) the appropriate people or person was at hand and then needed help? Another driver or drivers are close at hand-- reasonably appropriately dressed for situation-- would you be suggesting the driver/s stood back and took the it is not my problem attitude?