Marshals; the long hours (split from Silverstone Classic thread)

[rbs]

Originally Posted by johngee

Terence - a simple generalisation is the same motivation as St John Ambulance, Red Cross, Special Constabulary etc.but for petrolheads!
Plus, of course they get some of the best views in the house, feel part of what goes on and have a great sense of pride in being part of a professional team. Unfortunately, their numbers are shrinking - I suspect the day will come when we have CCTV and fast response vehicles....but that's for other threads

One of the reasons why marshal numbers are shrinking is the rediculous long days we are expected to work. The Silverstone Classic is one of the more unreasonable events this year. On Saturday we will sign on at 7.30am and should leave at approximately 9.15pm. I for one am not going to marshal the race that starts at 7,30pm. Other marshals have already expresses their views by saying they will only marshal on either Saturday or Sunday.
When you write to Silverstone Circuits about it they do not reply. I just hope some of the drivers will supply marshals to help out.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally Posted by rbs

One of the reasons why marshal numbers are shrinking is the rediculous long days we are expected to work. The Silverstone Classic is one of the more unreasonable events this year. On Saturday we will sign on at 7.30am and should leave at approximately 9.15pm. I for one am not going to marshal the race that starts at 7,30pm. Other marshals have already expresses their views by saying they will only marshal on either Saturday or Sunday.
When you write to Silverstone Circuits about it they do not reply. I just hope some of the drivers will supply marshals to help out.

I had a press release from the MSA yesterday saying they have had 700 enquiries from 'wannabe' marshals for the BTCC! Hope they are not chav banger racing fans who just want to get close to the action.

[simon drabble]

excuse my ignorance but how do they get round the problem at Spa when they do teh 6 Hour meeting? I was told thr marshelling problem at Silverstone was probably the main reason as to why a 6 Hour race will never happen at teh Classic - a great shame but I do sympathise with the comments concerning long hours

[esper]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

excuse my ignorance but how do they get round the problem at Spa when they do teh 6 Hour meeting? I was told thr marshelling problem at Silverstone was probably the main reason as to why a 6 Hour race will never happen at teh Classic - a great shame but I do sympathise with the comments concerning long hours

because of these long marshalling days, the spa event stopped earlier the last 2 years which simply means 1 or 2 races before the 6h were cancelled.

[Robin_D]

Well in the UK we have lots of events over those 3 days and the year is chock-a-block full of events. Especially in the midlands.

The long hours just add insult to injury really.

However as I have said before this along with the Walter Hayes is THE event of the year.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

Well in the UK we have lots of events over those 3 days and the year is chock-a-block full of events. Especially in the midlands.

The long hours just add insult to injury really.

However as I have said before this along with the Walter Hayes is THE event of the year.

so does that mean you think Marshalls would find a way around the long hours to marshall an eveing long distance race along the lines of the Spa 6 Hour?

[Robin_D]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

so does that mean you think Marshalls would find a way around the long hours to marshall an eveing long distance race along the lines of the Spa 6 Hour?

Well with numbers it could be limited. You may find that people do all day Saturday but don't do the sunday. The problem is we have 3 full days with Saturday being that little bit more.

If there was a 6 hour race then this should be incorporated into the timetable with some consideration that we may have an early start the next day.

[rbs]

There is a time and place for long distance events. they should be the main event at a stand alone meeting not the last event of the day on a very busy weekend. There is no place for a 6 hour race at the Silverstone Classic.
After last years event we were promised shorter days, that has not happened this year and now we have talk of a 6 hour race for 2008.

[terence]

Personally i,m of the opinion that there should be something like a Kitty for Marshal,s.If say £5 was given by each driver,via the entry fee,this could then be shared out,it would only be a jesture of our combined thank,s,I know it doe,snt solve the "Hours Thing",but maybe make things a little more worthwile??

[Robin_D]

Well I for one feel appreciated when we get to talk to you guys, even if you are upset or peeved when we do get to talk!
It's not your fault. You turn up and do your race! Simple! It's whoever put your timetable together and organises the event. We will be out there on Saturday for over 12 hours with a decent sized break if we are lucky. Then some of us drive home, to be back the next morning for an early start.

And we will really be short of bod's if we had a rota system. But I would be interested in the 6 hour race in the not to distant future!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Personally i,m of the opinion that there should be something like a Kitty for Marshal,s.If say £5 was given by each driver,via the entry fee,this could then be shared out,it would only be a jesture of our combined thank,s,I know it doe,snt solve the "Hours Thing",but maybe make things a little more worthwile??

Excellent idea. Plus maybe a £1 per person on (or from!) the spectator's entry fee.

[rbs]

Money is not the problem for marshals. We marshal as a hobby and do not expect any payment.One of major factors in the decline of marshal numbers was the late finishing times at Donington Park. Now, with fewer marshals on any circuit organisers (not necesarilly the promoting clubs) are expecting more from fewer volunteers.

For me living very close to Silverstone i will leave home at 7.00am and get home again at 9.45pm if I left the circuit immediately after the last race. I will still have to have a meal.There is no time to go for a pint and chat with drivers. On the Sunday I will leave home at 7.00am again having made a packed lunch and flask etc. Sorry chaps, thats why I will be heading home with one race to go on the Saturday. Maybe it is time for a 6pm curfew at all cicuits. Just compare the marshalling numbers for HSCC Donington Park and the Top Hat Silverstone Meeting to the 1st 750MC Mallory Park meeting.

For many of us this meeting is at the end of a very long month. 3 days at the GP, 2 days for BTCC Donington, 2 days for a BARC Silverstone meeting then the 3 days of the Classic.

[terence]

Don,t get me wrong,I don,t suppose that money is a problem,but It does,nt seem as though there is an answer for "Hours".Apart from ,as you say enforcing meeting,s to end at 6pm[unless it is of course a Main Event of 6hrs or more].Could it be arranged for a shift system on the longer events?Surely there must be some sense in this.

[rbs]

There is a lot of sense in a shift system, but there are not enough of us to operate it.

As for the money aspect, why should drivers be forced into compulsory donations for marshals?.

Motorsport must be one of the occupations where everyone pays. Competitors pay to compete, spectators pay to watch, marshals pay their own way, maybe the circuits should have more consideration.

I do not have a problem with long distance races but please run them in the confines of a normal day.

[simon drabble]

but a long distance race has to be in teh evening because I bought some really expensive lights a few years ago and they are now gathering dust!!!
Seriously speaking I fully appreciate what you are saying and acknowledge that without a shift system it would never work. However I am still interested to know how Spa do it as they are running it at teh end of a full day not finishing until 10pm (midnight previously)

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by rbs

Money is not the problem for marshals. We marshal as a hobby and do not expect any payment.

Yes, understood absolutely, but I think what Terence and I are suggesting provides recognition of the work that the marshals do and that without them neither competitor nor spectator will be able to enjoy this sport for too much longer. The point is that a pool of funds (which could be pretty worthwhile at the bigger attended meetings) to acknowledge this situation might provide sufficient recognotion and incentive to those who have drifted away to return and some new blood to the ranks. The knock on effect would, hopefully be, greater numbers available to spread the load and to allow shiftwork and breaks. If this cannot be achieved in some way, then organisers made need to recognise that they can no longer rely on volunteers to marshal all these events. What then?

I realise that this is off topic, but it is an important subject. Should I split the relevant posts off into a separate thread?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by rbs

As for the money aspect, why should drivers be forced into compulsory donations for marshals?.

To enable them to continue to enjoy their hobby. Same applies to spectators.

Originally Posted by rbs

Motorsport must be one of the occupations where everyone pays. Competitors pay to compete, spectators pay to watch, marshals pay their own way, maybe the circuits should have more consideration.

But logically the money that both competitors and spectators pay are surely to pay for running the event. That must include the part that marshals play in this. No marshals, no events. Agreed that circuits/organisers need to give this issue more attention. The irony is that motor racing in general (even in historics) has become more commercially and professionally orientated but still, in many instances, relies on volunteers to ensure the smooth running of its events!

Originally Posted by rbs

I do not have a problem with long distance races but please run them in the confines of a normal day.

24 hour races, excepted I hope!

[terence]

Possibly a good idea John,it, could provide a link between the drivers and marshall,s.If there are to be any changes in the future,better that both sides know whats going on!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I realise that this is off topic, but it is an important subject. Should I split the relevant posts off into a separate thread?

Please John - I have some views on this - there's a surprise! - and I'd like to make a considered observation later

[zefarelly]

sharing views is fine John but you might buck the trend if they're overly considered!

[Sabre Rattler]

Certainly agree that marshals need appreciation.
CSCC have organised for a draw for two tickets to Daytona in November. The more often you marshal at any of their meetings, the more likely you are to win the pair of tickets.
I have no idea if you have to marshal at Daytona!!!

[Fay]

I know that they are going to be long days, although I have not seen the latest time table.

I would prefer marshals to turn up and do some of the day rather than not turn up at all. If anyone wants to do part of the day flagging or observing please let me know and I will try and arrange cover for the rest of the day.

Perhaps some of the drivers who have driven early and are not in the evening race would like to have a go at flagging. If anyone is interested then please PM me.

Bear in mind that Pam and me have to be there early in the morning for sign-on and then we have to clear up after everyone else has gone. This can take quite a while as Alan has to collect all the flags from all the posts and put them away before we can go home. Yes John, I know you are there as well!!!

I hope it will be a fantastic meeting and I will try and wonder round, however I suspect that I will probably end up as Deputy Chief Flag as normal.

Fay Crook
HSCC - Chief Marshal

[JimW]

I think the key point is advance warning for marshals. For the last two years I have just done the Friday of the Classic meeting and regretted not seeing the racing. So I thought that I would volunteer for the complete weekend this year and still did so even when I knew of the late finish on Saturday. On course I'm sitting on a rescue unit so can catch up on my sleep.

Regards

Jim

[johngee]

My 'overly considered' views (thanks Joe )
The subject of long hours, lunch breaks and general marshal's appreciation is and has been, the subject of much debate and discussion and I'll start off by saying that I don't know the answers. However, I will say that throwing money directly at the problem is not a solution. The vast majority of marshals (and I regard myself as one, since I too am a volunteer) do not want to be paid - it's not our motivation and could bring in a raft of issues that are too awful to contemplate - Income tax, NHI contributions, Contracts of Employment, Working time directive, Health and Safety, Employers liability insurance....need I go on?). Directing extra money towards raffles, prizes etc. is a creative idea but, unfortunately, that benefits a very few individuals. What the majority of marshals want and deserve is courtesy, appreciation and acknowledgement of their vital and 'professional' role. I know there's a number of drivers on here who really do understand that but I'm afraid there's a lot who don't.
Getting back to the time pressures, this is all driven by commercial issues.The majority of circuits are limited in their hours of operation by ever increasing planning constraints (with a very few exceptions and special exemptions as in the Silverstone Classic) and the impositions of curfews are rigidly enforced. Whilst this is a good thing for marshals in ensuring reasonable finishing times, it causes orgainsing clubs to have to pack in as much as they possibly can (and then some! ) into the available hours to avoid 'going broke'....hence very often minimal lunch breaks. The circuit hire represents over three quarters of the meeting costs - they're fixed and the orgaising clubs take on the commercial risk of getting enough entries to cover that (and a few other things). Costs of circuit hire are ever increasing and before you think that I'm critical of that, bear in mind the vast improvements, for example, of MSV circuits over the past couple of years...and circuits have to make a return on their investment better than that of turning them into truck parks or housing estates. Promoted professional meetings (like the Classic) are a little different in that, basically, the meeting content is responsibility of the circuit operator (who looks at spectator income etc.) and, the organising club is paid a fee to administer the meeting.
We therefore come back to the evening race at the Classic and if the chosen organising club, in this case the HSCC (for whom I do NOT speak on this occasion! - I just run what I'm given to run) were to decline on timetabling issues, I'm sure that there are other clubs who would jump at the chance. We therefore have to ASK for volunteers to run the event and I know that there are those who feel that the required hours are a 'bridge too far'.... I'm not having a 'pop' at anybody but it is a choice......some of us accept it, other's don't.
It's a crazy sport, this one that we love......the competitors pay, the spectators pay, the officials pay and organisers take big commercial risks ...as some clubs have found to their cost!
Whilst timetable issues may have led to some officials walking away from the sport, the root causes of reducing numbers are far deeper and in my view revolve around the changing pressures of 21st century life and the reduction in the volunteering culture. Money raised, spent and distributed well may help but it's not the complete answer. If I knew what it was, the MSA would pay me a lot of money - in my dreams

[terence]

Some interesting points John,thank,s for the enlightenment,my suggestion was purely one of thank,s to these guys,without whom ,as you are fully aware,we would have to do something else.